OFFICIAL REPORT
—OF THE —
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES
— IN THE—
CONVENTION
ASSEMBLED AT FRANKFORT, ON THE EIGHTH DAY OF SEPTEMBER, 1890, TO ADOPT, AMEND OR CHANGE THE
CONSTITUTION
—OF THE—
STATE OF KENTUCKY.
FRANKFORT, ICY.:
E. Polk .Johnson, Printer to the Convention. ' , 1890.
VOLUME IV.OFFICERS OF THE CONVENTION.
PRESIDENT,
CASSIUS M. CLAY, JR., Bourbon County.
SECRETARIES,
THOMAS G. POORE, Secretary, Hickman County. JAMES B. MARTIN, Assistant Secretary, Barren county. JAMES E. STONE, Reading Clerk, Breckinridge county.
REPORTER,
CLARENCE E. WALKER, City of Louisville.
SERGEANT-AT-ARMS,
ROBERT TYLER, Bullitt county.
JANITOR,
TODD HALL, Clark County.
DOOR-KEEPER,
RICHARD T. HALEY, City of Louisville.4564 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,]
Wednesday, March 11, 1891.
The Convention was called to order hy the President protein. (Mr. Rodes), and the pro­ceedings opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. Neville.
The Journal of yesterday’s proceedings was read and approved.
The PRESIDENT pro tern. Petitions are now in order.
Petitions. ,
Mr. BUCKNER. I send up a petition
from the citizens of Hart county, and I de­sire to have it referred to the Committee on the Location of the Capital.
Mr. Clay here took the Chair.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, that will be done.
Mr. BECKNER. I send up a petition from the students of eighty counties of the State, and will ask to have it read.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, the petition will be read.
The Clerk proceeded with the reading of the petition, and before the conclusion of the reading of the same-----
Mr. YOUNG. Mr. President, I would suggest that this whole matter to which this petition relates has already been settled and disposed of, and I do not see the slight­est use for the Convention to sit and listen for a half an hour to a matter that has already been settled by the Convention.
The PRESIDENT. It is true that the matter has been settled, but the Chair will proceed with the business in the regular order. What disposition will the Conven­tion make of the petition ?
Mr. POGH. 1 move that it he referred to the Committee on Education.
Mr. BECKNER. I object to that. I desire to have it read, and go into the Journal of to-day’s proceedings.
[March 11.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will state that the rule in regard to that matter is, that petitions can only be printed in the Record hy an affirmative vote of the Con­vention. Does the gentleman ask that it he printed ?
Mr. L. T. MOORE. I move that the- petition be respectfully returned to the Delegate from Clark.
The PRESIDENT. That motion would hardly be in order.
Mr. BECKNER. Well, just let it be referred.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, that will be done. Petitions are still in order; reports of Standing Committees;, reports of Special Committees. There be­ing no such reports, resolutions are now in order.
■ Education.
Mr. NUNN. I desire to offer a substi­tute for section two of the report of the Committee and all amendments thereto.
The PRESIDENT. If there are no other motions or resolutions, the Chair will call up the unfinished business of yester­day. The Clerk will report the pending section. .
The CLERK. The pending section is section two of the report, and the first amendment in order is that offered by the Delegate from Hardin.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I withdraw that, as I have accepted the amendment adopted offered by the Delegate from Lexing­ton.
The CLERK. The next amendment in order is that proposed by the Delegate from Clark, which is to strike out of sec­tion two of the report of the Committee the following words, namely : Beginning with the word “ together,” in line thirteen, down to and including the word “ taxa­tion,” in line nineteen.
Beckner—Y oung—Pugh.EDUCATION. 4565
Wednesday,] Beckner— N ton—Elmore. [March 11.
Mr. BECKNER. That has been stricken -out. The first word mentioned in the first ■clause of my amendment was meant to prevent the greatest trouble the Conven­tion was put to on yesterday, to make that •clear by the amendment. If these words be stricken out, the section would then stand guaranteeing the integrity of the common school fund for common school purposes, and not restricting the power of the General Assembly to provide for other necessary institutions connected with popu­lar education. .
Mr. NUNN. My attention was called away, and I do not understand what the amendment proposed is. '
Mr. BECKNER. I will read from it:
Together with any sum produced from taxation for the purposes of education.
If that be stricken out, it leaves it, “the interest and dividend of said fund shall he appropriated to common schools, and no other purpose.” That is the way it would read, if the words I move to strike out are left out.
Mr. NUNN. I hope the Convention will not strike those words out.
Mr. BECKNER. I am not quite through. It says; “The interest and divi­dends of said sum, together with any sum which may be produced by taxation for the purpose of education, shall he appropriated to the common schools, and for no other purpose ” There is a change in the phrase­ology from that used in the present Consti­tution, and it is a change which requires every sum raised by taxation for education­al purposes to be put in the common schools, which is evidently not the desire of the Convention, because it would turn the pro­ceeds of the tax levied for the A. and M.> College into that fund, and it would turn all the proceeds of any tax for the Normal School, and it provides that any sum for educational purposes shall be appropriated
to the common school fund. I am in favor of a common school fund; but still the State desires these other institutions, and the argument that the common schools need it, and it is a loss to education, is misleading. It will help the com­mon schools but little, and of itself is necessary. A man might say the light­houses along our coasts should not be main­tained, but that the money used for the light-house should be taken and used on ship-board, so as to have bigger head-lights. The government is able to have the head­lights as well as the light-houses, and they are both necessary. So, I say the tax raised for the A. and M. College is just as essential to the growth, development and prosperity of the system as the tax for common schools; but this clause left in there forbids the use of the money for the A. and M. College.
Mr. WHITAKER. I have an amend­ment1 to offer, which I will send up.
Mr. ELMORE. The Supreme Court de­cided different from that. .
Mr. BECKNER. Yes, hut the decision of the Court of Appeals was under the present Constitution, which is worded differently. The report of the majority of the Committee changes the whole phrase­ology of the old Constitution, and launches the Courts upon a new sea of construction, where they have to begin anew. If you adopt that report, you compel the Courts to construe it, whereas they have construed the present Constitution, and its words are- understood. They, have been there for forty years, but these words are new words, which give an entirely different construc­tion to the instrument. I hope they will be stricken out. '
Mr. NUNN. I hope the Convention will not strike out those words. To strike out those words, if I understand the amendment, would leave it within the power of the Legislature to appropriate any part of this twenty-two and a half4566 EDUCATION.
"Wednesday,]
cents, raised by the different votes of the people, to the benefit of the A. and M. College, or any other college in the State of Kentucky that the Legislature might see proper to appropriate it to. The lan­guage used in this report ought to remain as it is, so that the Legislature can never appropriate the tax now levied for common school purposes for any other purpose, and, I think, to strike out the words specified by tile gentleman from Clark, leaves it in the power of the Legislature to appropriate that fund for the benefit of the colleges throughout the State of Kentucky.
Mr. BECKNER. If the gentleman will allow me, I will read it: “ The interest and dividends of said fund, together with any sum which may be produced for that pur­pose by taxation or otherwise, may he ap­propriated in aid of common schools, hut for no other purpose.” The words com­mon school is used there exactly as in the old Constitution, and I want to preserve that because we understand it.
Mr. BRONSTON. I agree with the gentleman fully, if you will just add in the fourteenth line, instead of saying for pur­poses of education, common schools, then our views will exactly coincide.
Mr. BECKNER. I will accept that.
Mr. NUNN. But I will not accept that. I have an amendment which meets the whole question, and leaves the common school fund inviolate. I have a provision that if the people of Kentucky want to erect colleges, or want to assist the A. & M. College by vote, they can do it; and I have, also, an exception in behalf of the A. & M. College to continue the tax now given for that institution until changed by law. I have all of those ideas mentioned in my substitute. As I said before, the gentleman from Lexington agrees with me, to adopt the amendment of the Delegate from Clark would put it in the power of the Legislature to appropriate the school fund, as now collected, to the purposes of
[March 11.
higher education all over the State, if the Legislature saw proper to do it, and I do- not want that done, and I hope the Con­vention is of the same opinion.
Mr. BECKNER. Neither do I want that done. If the Chair will allow me, I will change my amendment to insert com­mon schools.
Mr. NUNN. I object to that.
The PRESIDENT. The gentleman has a right to do it. The previous question has not been ordered, and it has not been voted on.
Mr. NUNN. With that amendment in, I want to say this: that that leaves it in the power of the Legislature, without consult­ing the people, to make appropriations for colleges throughout the State of Kentucky. I do not believe this Convention wants to give them that power, so that the friends of the A. and M. College, the College at Bowling Green, Paducah, and the other- places, can all come together to the Legis­lature and get appropriations made to the different colleges throughout the State of Kentucky. I do not believe this Conven­tion wants to allow that power. We have always submitted the question of taxation to the people, except in the one instance of theone-half centto the A. & M. College; but this amendment will authorize the Legisla­ture to make these appropriations pro­miscuously throughout the State, and I do- not believe that we ought to give that power to the Legislature.
Mr. BRONSTON. I want to correct a. statement made by the Delegate from Crit­tenden. .
Mr. JONSON. Are we under the five-minute rule this morning, Mr. Presi­dent ? '
The PRESIDENT. The Clerk will please inform the Chair.
Mr. JONSON. That is my recollection.
Mr. BRONSTON. This is a new amend­ment, though.
. The PRESIDENT. The Delegate from
N UNIT—Beckubr—Bbonston-.
EDUCATION. 4567
Wednesday,] Bronstox—Beckner—Harris. [March 11.
McLean calls for the regular order, and the Chair is informed that we are under the live-minute rule, which allows the mover of a proposition five minutes debate, and the opposition five minutes debate.
Mr. BRONSTON. I understand that. The Delegate from Crittenden got up and spoke against the amendment of the Dele­gate from Clark before the change had been made. The change, of course, made a new amendment.
The PRESIDENT. The Delegate can reply to the remarks of the Delegate from Crittenden when that comes up. The Del­egate from Crittenden occupied the floor five minutes in opposition to the amend­ment of the Delegate from Clark. The previous question has not been ordered, and no vote having been taken, a Delegate has the right to change his amendment, but by changing the verbiage of the amend­ment when there is objection, and there was in this case, he loses the place of the amendment. If there are other amend­ments after this amendment, they take precedence of the amendment which has been changed. After the change is made, it becomes a new amendment. -
Mr. BRONSTON. Can I say one word on the amendment of the Delegate from Clark? '
The PRESIDENT. Only as a personal explanation, because the Chair has to en­force the rule of the Convention, and the rule is, that a gentleman who offers an amendment shall have five minutes in ad­vocacy, and then the first gentleman who rises in opposition shall be recognized for five minutes, and then debate is closed.
Mr. BRONSTON. I recognize that.
Mr. BECKNER. Having changed that amendment, can I not have the privilege of saying a few words ?
The PRESIDENT. The amendment of the Delegate from Clark is not before the Convention, but the next amendment is, and the Chair will recognize the mover of that amendment for five minutes in ad­vocacy
of it. When a gentleman changes his amendment, when there is objection, and there was in this case, he loses the turn. The Clerk will report the next amendment.
The CLERK. It is that offered by the Delegate from Henderson.. .
Mr. HARRIS. I have an amendment to section two.
The PRESIDENT. It will be con­sidered in its order.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the Delegate from Hender­son.
Mr. FARMER. I withdraw that.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the Delegate from McLean:
Amend section two by inserting after the word “cast/’ in line eighteen—
That has been stricken out. ■
The PRESIDENT. That is out of order.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the. Delegate from Mc­Cracken.
Mr. BULLITT. I withdraw that.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the Delegate from Clark: “ Amend by inserting after the word ‘ taxa* tion,’ in. the fourteenth li^e, the words ‘or otherwise,’ and before the word ‘ educa­tion ’ the words ‘common school.’” It would then read: “ The interest and divi­dends of said fund, together with any sum which may he produced by taxation or otherwise for the purpose of common school education ”■-----
Mr. BECKNER. I yield my time to the Delegate from Lexington.
Mr. BRONSTON. The Delegate from. Crittenden complains that, by the insertion of these words, you would leave the matter in the power of the Legislature to make any kind of distribution of funds for the purpose of education. I beg the Delegate to notice the language of the section, as amended, and if he does, he will not take that position. As amended, the section4568 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,]
would read: “ The interest and dividends of said fund,” that is, referring to the bonds of the Commonwealth for one mil­lion three hundred and twenty-seven thou­sand dollars and the hank stock, “ together with any sum which may be produced by taxation or otherwise for the purpose of common school education, shall be appro­priated to the common schools, and to no other purpose.”
That holds sacred the common school fund. The residue of the section would read in accordance with the action of the Convention on yesterday afternoon.
Mr. NUNN. With the amendment of the Delegate from Clark in, what would be the necessity of the amendment adopted on yesterday ? Has not the Legislature the power to continue that, and make any other appropriation to other colleges?
Mr. BRONSTON. Not at all. I ex­plained yesterday, to the satisfaction of everybody but the Delegate from Critten­den—
Mr. NUNN. I say, with the amend­ment of the Delegate from Clark in, what would he the necessity of the amendment adopted yesterday evening?
Mr. BRONSTON. It would he unques­tionably necessvyj because, without it, you would prevent the Legislature from con­tinuing this appropriation to the State Col­leges. The amendment yesterday after­noon was to strike out certain words and insert others, and the report of the Com­mittee, with the amendment of the Delegate from ClaTk, virtually nullified what was done yesterday.
Mr. NUNN. That tax levied for the A. & M. College was not levied for com­mon school purposes?
Mr. BRONSTON. This provision does not say it is levied for common school pur­poses.
Mr. NUNN. With this amendment in it does.
Mr. BRONSTON. That is what the Convention wants; that the dividends, etc.,
[March 11.
on the bank stock shall he held sacred, and unless you put in the amendment of the Delegate from Clark, your amendment does not mean that.
Mr. YOUNG. I hope the Convention will certainly take steps to see that no portion of the common school fund, outside of this one-half cent already appropriated, shall he appropriated to the A. and M College. A good many of us have sub­mitted to this; hut we want no Trojan horse in this matter. We have gone as far as we ought to go towards giving higher education to a limited number of the chil­dren of the State. I yield to no man in the desire to do all that we can to educate the human race; but I do not believe in the principle „by which taxation is levied for the purpose of giving higher education to a limited number at the expense of the whole. There are six hundred thousand children in this Commonwealth, and five hundred of them can get the benefit of this institution. I say, as it stands, I shall enter no further objection to it; but I am not satisfied to put in this new amendment. Let the language stand as it is. We know what it means.
Mr. BRONSTON. Well, will you please tell us what it means?
Mr. YOUNG. It means that money raised by taxation for common school pur­poses shall be used for common school pur­poses, and nothing else.
Mr. BRONSTON. All we want is to insert the words common school education in the fourteenth line there, and then we agree fully.
Mr. BEOKNER. It leaves out the word “ otherwise,” which includes a large tax for our common schools.
Mr. YOUNG. I do not know how we can make it any plainer.
Mr. BRONSTON. It says it shall be held for common school purposes.
Mr. YOUNG. That is what we already have.
Mr. BECKNER. The words “ or othev-
Nwn—Bronston—Young.
'• i
! I
1 \
*EDUCATION. 4569
"Wednesday,] Y O UNO---S M IT H—H AXRIS. [March 11.
■wise ” includes a large amount of the tax that we get. It is left out of the report. The tax on hanks, on railroads and playing ■cards go to the common schools, and that tax is not secured hy the report, and 1 de­sire to put in “ or otherwise ” to hold that "invi late.
Mr. YOUNG-. I suggest that we 1 ok at this matter very carefully, and make no mistake. We have gone as far as any re­gard for any trust or patriotism, or any
■ other consideration, ought to make us go. I do not want to go any further. I think that half cent is as far as the Constitution ■ should go.
Mr. BEGUN EE. On that I ask for the yeas and nays
Mr. WILLIAMS. I second it.
Mr. BECKNEB. At the suggestion of
■ several gentlemen, I will withdraw the
■call. - .
A vote being taken, the amendment was adopted.
The CLEBK. The next amendment is •that of the Delegate from Simpson :
Amend section two by adding thereto these words: “ But no additional tax, other than that now provided by law, shall be levied by the State for educational pur­poses, except that it be first submitted to a ■vote of the people, and approved hy a ma­jority of the votes oast at said election,”
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I make the point of order .against that amendment, that identically the same thing was voted on yesterday, when the latter part of section two was stricken out, which says that no sum shall be raised for the purpose of edu­cation, except for common schools, until the question of taxation shall he submitted to the legal voters of the State, and a ma­jority of the votes east, etc. Now, I make the point of order that that was substan­tially voted down yesterday, and is not now in order.
Mr. HABBIS. My recollection is, that the motion was to strike out the latter part ■of that section and insert something else.
288
This presents an altogether new question,
I think.
The PEESIDBNT. The Chair sees a difference in this. In the original section, the part stricken out says: “No sum shall be raised or collected for education except for the common schools, until the question of taxation is submitted to the legal voters, and a majority of the votes cast in favor oftaxatiun.” Thatmeans that any proposition for education outside of common schools shall be submitted to the people; but the amendment proposed hy the Delegate from Simpson is much brqader; it includes an additional tax for common schools, or any other purpose, and, there­fore, it is not the same, and is in order.
Mr. HABBIS. I simply desire to say, as to this amendment, that that section, as now amended, does not interfere at all with that one-half of one per cent, taxation for the Agricultural and Mechanical College at Lexington. It leaves that standing just as the Committee provides, and further pro­vides that no tax in addition to that now levied by law shall hereafter be made by the State, either for common school pur­poses or for any thing else—for colleges common schools or normal schools, or for other educational purposes at all. It is as broad as it can be made. It says: “ shall be made by the State, except hy a vote of the people, ratified by a majority of those voting.” In other words, that seeks to put a stop and a limit upon the extent of taxa­tion in aid of education in any way, except upon a vote of the people.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I would like to ask the -gentleman a question as to that part of the amendment referring to appro­priations for any purpose, not only educa­tional purposes, and if that would not prevent an appropriation by the State for the Deaf and Dumb Asylum and the Blind Asylum except by a vote of the people?
Mr. HABBIS. I do not think the Blind Asylum would come under it.0
*
4570 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,] Smith—Becknek—DeHaven. [March 11'..
Mr. B. H. SMITH. Has it not been classed as sn educational institution ?
Mr. DeHAVEN. If it is in order, I would like to offer a substitute for the amendment of the Delegate from Simp­son.
Mr. BECKNBR. I desire to say a few words on this subject. '
Mr. JOHNSTON. Let the substitute be read first.
The Clerk reported the amendment, which is as follows:
Amend section two by adding thereto the following: “The tax now levied for the benefit of the Agricultural and Me­chanical College at Lexington shall not he increased, but may be repealed by the Gen­eral Assembly.”
Mr. BEOKNER. I desire to say that I am not here as the representatives! the Agricultural and Mechaninal College at Lexington. If it were an institution of learning at Paducah or Bowling Green or Covington, or wherever else the Common-’ wealth had established it in the wisdom of the .General Assembly, I should stand by it as faithfully as I do by the Agricultural and Mechanical College at Lexington. I object to the provision in the amendment of the gentleman from Simpson, because it ties our hands in the future. It says to those who shall come after us that they shall erect no institution of learning; that they shall do nothing to enlighten the peo­ple of the State; that we, with our limited vision, think it now sufficient.
Suppose the framers of the first Consti­tution had put in some clause fixing that only such institutions as we then had for the enlightenment of the people should be provided for, what would have been our condition ? Common schools were then unheard of in the South. No effort had been made south of the Ohio river to pro­vide a system of popular education, and the question of colleges, and all other insti­tutions of learning under the control or patronage of the State, were undreamed of
So, seventy-five years ago, the school for- the blind, the school for the deaf and dumb, were unthought of; no provision of this kind had been dreamed of. Now,, what I object to is, that the amendment should be put in that ties the hands of fu­ture generations. and says to the General Assemblies that shall come after us, repre­senting the people from whom they come,, and whose views they speak, that they shall do nothing beyond these things which our ancestors, or those of the present dayj. have done. I think that is a mistake. For myself, I do not see at present what may be needed in the future except a normal school. It may become necessary to edu­cate the teachers of schools, and for that it will become necessary to have normal schools. The amendment offered by the gentleman will prohibit that, and with the- probability that the growing light of civili tion will spread its beams on the future, and no doubt reach far beyond what we can to-day conceive of or imagine, I say it is- better to leave it to the people to manage their own systems of education in the- future. They will have to pay for them, and they will understand what the needs of. the people are.
Mr. DeHAVEN. I desire to take up but a little time of the Convention. We have already had this question very thor­oughly discussed, and I. have listened with- great pleasure and with great profit to many of tile speeches made, and I am sincerely sorry that I cannot concur in all the con­clusions to which the ardent advocates of’ popular education have arrived.
Now, Mr. President, the position has been assumed here, and maintained with great gravity, that it is the bounden duty of the State to furnish to every child in the State not only the elements of an English education, but also to provide the means for higher education. Now, I say, sir, that that proposition cannot he maintained by any gentleman on this floor. I have been, taught that it was the duty of the parent to-EDUCATION. 4571
Wednesday,] Becknek—DeHaven. [March 11,
provide for the maintenance and education of the child, and, in my judgment, we are going too far when we say that this gov­ernment shall stand in loco parentis. We are going much too far when we say that the State, shall undertake to educate all the boys and girls in this State,.not only in the elements of education, but also in the higher branches of learning. It cannot he done, and ought not to be done if it could be.
Mr. BECK.NEK. Will the gentleman allow me to ask him a question?
Mr. DeHAYEN. Not if it is to come out of my time; but after I have finished,
I will answer any question, if I can.
Now, Mr. President, tbe policy of the State has been that we shall provide the means for the rudiments of an English ed­ucation to all the boys and girls of the State. To that I have no earthly objec­tion, but do most heartily concur. I am perfectly willing to pay my proportion of taxation for the purposes of educating, in the common school branches, the children of this State; but when you come tome and say that I must pay a tax to educate the child or children of a man who is as well off in worldly goods as I am, at some "of the higher colleges, I say I must demur to that proposition. It is wholly impracticable; as has been stated here, there are to day five or six hundred thou­sand children of school age in this State. How is it possible for us to provide that all these children shall have a collegiate edu­cation?
Another thing has been assumed on this floor which I do not believe, and that is, that in proportion as you educate the peo­ple you make them better. You may take the statistics of this country, and you will find-that in many sections, where the peo­ple are most highly educated, they are the most vicious and criminal. And there is another thing about it, Mr President If you will furnish to any poor boy of this State—and thereisnoman on this floor who
has more sympathy with that class than I have—I say if you will furnish to any poor boy of this State the rudiments of an Eng­lish education, if there is any thing in him he will get the balance; and if there is nothing in him, you may keep him at school from the time he is ten years old until he is twenty-one, and he is nothing then but a learned idiot, if there is such a thing. The primary object of all educa­tion is to enable the people to make an honest living, and to make them valuable and good citizens; and in order to do that, you have to do something more than to cultivate the intellect of a boy. You have to cultivate, not only his mind, but also his morals; and I tell you if you cultivate the mind only, and leave the morals entirely neglected, you turn loose on society a much worse man than a man who is ignor­ant. What we want in this country for the benefit of society is not so much intel­lectual education as we need good men, true, honest men and upright men; men . who will do right because it is right, and not because it is policy.
Now, I wish to make but one other sug­gestion: The amendment I have offered to this section is not out of any particular hostility to the A. & M. College at Lexing­ton. Por one, sir, the tax that is imposed,. I believe, is of so trifling a character that I am not disposed to quarrel with it; but I say that the principle is wrong, and that, if sanctioned by this Convention, I say that it is tbe bounden duty of this body to limit it. I understand the gentleman from Lexington and my enthusiastic friend from Clark are perfectly satisfied with tbe tax now imposed for the benefit of the Ag­ricultural and Mechanical College at Lex­ington.
Mr. BECKNEK. I am satisfied. •.
Mr. DeHAYEN. If that is so, then let us pin it down there; hut, in my humble judgment, this is only the entering wedge for taxation for collegiate purposes in this country on a larger scale.*
4572 EDUCATION.
"Wednesday,] Beokner—Smith— DeHayen. [March 11.
Mr. BBCKNER. Now this is a question. I want to ask the Delegate from Oldham.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I would like to make an inquiry. I understand the Dele­gate from Clark was allowed five minutes ■ on this proposition, and that the Delegate from Oldham has now occupied five min- nates; now, is the gentleman from Clark en­titled to the floor again ?
The PRESIDENT. .The Chair held that when the gentleman changed his ■amendment it became a new one. The Chair recognized the Delegate from Clark in advocacy of his own amendment, and he .yielded his time to the Delegate from Lex­ington. Then the Delegate from the Fourth Louisville District occupied five minutes in opposition. Now, in regard to the amendment offered by the Delegate from Oldham, he occupied five minutes in opposition to the amendment proposed by the Delegate from Simpson.
Mr. DeHAVEN. I spoke in favor of my own amendment.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I would like to ask this question.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will state the status of affairs. The Delegate from Oldham offered a substitute, and he occupied five minutes in advocacy of it, and it is now in order for some Delegate to oc­cupy five minutes in opposition.
Mr. BEOKNER. I will yield my time to the Delegate from Hardin.
’ Mr. H. H. SMITH. With all my re­spect for the distinguished abilities of the gentleman from Oldham, I am not sur­prised, sir, that he should get on this floor and advocate the amendment that he has offered. I am not surprised, sir, that a man who is not in sympathy with the nineteenth century takes decided a stand against education, and I cannot hope to answer the argument of any Delegate who advocates that education produces crimi­nality, who advocates that higher educa­tion has the effect of lowering the standard of citizenship, and to make men loafers,
idlers, and unfit for the practical duties of life. I am not surprised, sir, that the Dele­gate from Oldham should advocate his amendment in the manner that he does, with opposition to light and intelligence, when he does not believe that any man is lit for the practical duties of life until he has reached the age of thirty-five or forty, or, when he has concluded his common school education, that he should go to work, and live out ten or fifteen years of serfdom. However much we might respect him, we could expect nothing from him in point of liberality.
M r. President, the resolution offered by the Delegate from Oldham, in effect, cuts oft' any additional appropriation by the Legislature in the future for higher educa­tion. It would cut off the money recently appropriated by Congress. As I said on the floor yesterday, the State of Kentucky has been a laggard in the matter of provid­ing higher education for its people. The principle that a State ought to provide for the education of its citizens has been set­tled for half a century, and I am surprised that gentlemen contend for the feudalistie idea. Every State in the Union—at least two States in the Union have given ten times the amount that Kentucky has for higher education; six States have given five timeB the amount, and twenty-four of the States twice the amount, and only five of the States in the United States have given less than the State of Kentucky. And yet gentlemen get on the floor, and declare that we have done all we should do in the direction of providing higher education, and that they would cut off not only the means of securing so much of it as we now have, but would prohibit the Legislature and the people of Ken­tucky from ever giving any thing addi­tional to the cause of higher education. The substitute offered by the Delegate from Simpson declares, in effect, that the Normal School built upon that hill yonder shall remain in existence no longer. It,EDUCATION. 4573
Wednesday,] Smith—Hakt.is—De Haven-. [March 11.
in effect, cuts off all additional appropria­tion for higher education. And I am very much like the hunter in Arkansas—I be­lieve there will be catamounts after this catamount—and so I believe intelligence and patriotism will exist in the land long after the Delegates on this floor have passed away; that there will live men. in the next century who will seek to do good for the people of Kentucky, and that they will ho competent to judge of that matter them­selves. Dor one, I am not willing as a Delegate to arrogate to myself the wisdom or intelligence of the next generation. I am not willing to say that the people of Kentucky cannot take care of themselves.
I am not willing to place the iron hand of Constitutional enactment around the poor children of. Kentucky to their detriment.
I am not willing that my people shall suf­fer for the idiosyncrasies or selfishness of any Delegate on this floor. I have no interest at all in this matter except as a representa­tive of Kentucky intelligence, caused by a sense of duty and patriotism to my people.
Mr. HARRIS. I would like to ask the gentleman from Oldham a question.
The PRESIDENT. It can be done only by unanimous consent.
Mr. HARRIS. I want to ask the Dele­gate from Oldham if his amendment limits the Legislature on the subject of levying taxes.
Mr. DeHAVEN. It certainly does, so far as this institution is concerned. There is but one higher institution supported by taxation.
Mr. HARRIS. It only limits it as to the A. & M. College.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I would like to ask a question.
The PRESIDENT. By unanimous con­sent, that can be done.
Mr. BECKHAM. I desire to offer an amendment to the substitute of the Dele­gate from Oldham. . '
The PRESIDENT. The amendment is not in order. The substitute is an amend­ment in the second degree itself.
Mr. BECKHAM. Will it be in order if accepted by the mover of the substitute ?
The PRESIDENT. As the previous question has not been ordered, the Delegate from Oldham can accept it. The Delegate from Hardin wishes to ask the Delegate from Oldham a question.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I want to ask him if his amendment does not cut off the appro­priation that might he given to the Normal School-here? And not only to the A. & M. College, but to any other institution of higher education ? .
Mr. DeHAVEN. It certainly does not. The amendment of the Delegate from Shelby was read, and is as follows:
Strike out of the amendment of the Dele­gate from Oldham the words : “hut may be repealed by the General Assembly.”
Mr. DeHAVEN. I have no objection to accepting that.
Mr. PETTIT. I have'objection.
The PRESIDENT. The' objection of the Delegate from Daviess does not amount to any thing, as the gentleman could withdraw his amendment, and then re-offer it with the change, as sug gested.
Mr. BECKHAM. In explanation of that amendment, those words simply make a suggestion to the General Assembly, a power of repeal, a power which it has without that; but with those words stricken out, it simply fixes the limitation on the power of the General Assembly to increase the tax.
The CLERK. The substitute now reads:
Amend section two by adding thereto the following: “The tax now levied for the benefit of the Agricultural and Mechanical College at Lexington shall not he in­creased.”
Mr. BRONSTON. That is offered as a substitute.
• The PRESIDENT. Yes.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. On that I call the 1 yeas and nays.4574 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,1
The PRESIDENT. There is no sec­ond.
A vote "being taken, the substitute offered by the Delegate from Oldham was agreed to. '
The PRESIDENT. The question is now on the adoption of the amendment of the Delegate from Simpson, as amended "by the Delegate from Oldham.
A vote being taken, the amendment, as amended, was adopted.
The CLERK. The next thing in order is the substitute offered by the Delegate from Crittenden for the second section; which was read, and is as follows:
The bond of the Commonwealth, issued in favor of the Board of Education for the sum of $1,327,000, shall constitute one bond by the Commonwealth in favor of the Board of Education, and this bond and the $73,500 stock in the Bank of Kentucky, held by the Board of Education, or its pro­ceeds, shall be held inviolate for the pur­pose of sustaining a system of common schools. The interest and dividends of said fund, together with any sum which may be produced by taxation for the purposes of ed­ucation, shall be appropriated to the com­mon schools, and for no other purpose. No sum shall he raised or collected other than for the common schools, until the question of taxation is submitted to the legal voters, and a majority of the votes cast at said election in favor of said tax: And provided, however, The tax now imposed for educa­tional purposes shall remain until changed by law.
Mr. NTTNN. I want to call the atten­tion of the Convention to a change made by the Delegate from Clark in his amend­ment as adopted this morning. The lan­guage of the present Constitution on this subject is this:
By taxation or otherwise for the purposes of education shall be held inviolate for the purpose of sustaining a system of common schools.
The Court of Appeals, by a divided Court, under this provision, decided that the tax levied by the Legislature in aid of the A. & M. College was valid.
[March 11.
Mr. BRONSTON. By a divided Court ?
Mr. NUNN. There was a dissenting opinion. '
Mr. BRONSTON. That is not a divided Court.
Mr. NUNN. Well, then, there was a dissenting opinion. The section,as amend­ed, on that point reads this way : “ The in­terest and dividends of said fund, together with any sum which may be produced by taxation or otherwise, for the purposes of common school education, shall be appro­priated to the common schools, and to no other purpose ” Now, the Convention will bear in mind that the Legislature has al­ready all power, except as restricted by this Constitution. Now, I ask what, restriction is there in this section, or in any other sec­tion of the Constitution, upon the Legisla­ture from appropriating any fund that it sees proper, or levying any tax it sees prop­er in aid of the A. & M. College, the Normal School, the school at Bowling Green, Center College, or any other college in the State of Kentucky? With this amendment of the Delegate from Clark in, what restriction have we upon the Legisla­ture appropriating any fund it sees proper for higher education? None whatever. The gentleman remarked this morning that I was the only peison in the Convention so dull that I could not see the point. I say, with that amendment of the Delegate from Clark in, there is no necessity for the amendment adopted yesterday afternoon, because there is no prohibition or inhibi tion on the Legislature levying the halt cent tax in favor of that institution, or any other institution in the State of Kentucky that it sees proper.
Bence the necessity of putting into this provision that, before the Legislature of the State of Kentucky can enter into higher education, it must submit the proposition to the people of the State for their ratifica­tion. At the bottom of the substitute I provide that all taxes now levied for educa-
N usx—Bronstox.
EDUCATION. 4675
■Wednesday,] Becicnek-
tional purposes shall remain as now until changed by law. That saves the half cent tax to the A. & M. College, and all the taxes imposed for educational purposes, until the Legislature sees proper to change it. Why the necessity of naming the A. ■& M. College, or the Blind Asylum, or the Deaf and and Dumb Asylum, or any other asylum in the State of Kentucky, as the amendment of the Delegate from Clark makes the section apply only to taxation for common school purposes—for common school purposes alone, and with no restric­tion on the Legislature. It is left free to enter upon higher education, if it sees proper to do so.
Mr. BECKNER. The Delegate from Crittenden, in his amendment, excludes a very large portion of the common school fund.
Mr. NUNN. I forgot about that. I would like to reply just a second. I want to reply to the statement he made a few minutes ago, that the tax on playing-cards, etc., went to the common schools. I ask, what restriction is there in this section, or any other section in the Constitution, pre­venting the Legislature from appropriating a tax -on playing-cards, or those other things which he mentioned, to common schools? None whatever.
Mr. BECKNER. Yes, sir; what I say is, that the amendment of the Delegate from Crittenden takes out the guaranty in ■•the Constitution that the fund raised other­wise than by taxation, as I understand by that, the fifteen cents or the two cents. Besides tlie tax of twenty-two cents for common school purposes, there is also the tax on distilled spirits, on railroads, on State national hanks, on insurance com­panies, on turnpike companies, on miscella­neous corporations, on the capital of the Tanners’ Bank, on the capital of the Bann­ers’ and Traders’ Bank of Shelbyville-——
Mr. NUNN. That tax was not imposed for educational purposes, but the Legisla­ture, by enactment, appropriated it to that
.—N unn. [March 11,
purpose. What is there in this section that restricts the Legislature from passing a law appropriating these funds or any other funds in that way?
Mr. BECKNER. There is nothing to prevent it, but there is nothing to guaran­tee it.
Mr. NUNN. The gentleman was satisfied with the Legislature, the other day, that they would not take a backward step, and can be not trust it now ?
Mr. BECKNER, I am not afraid to trust the Legislature, but if we are going to guarantee funds to educational purposes, let us guarantee all of them. The old Con­stitution says “or otherwise,” which in­cludes the tax on billiard-tables, playing- cards, etc., all of which is secured by the Constitution. If we are going to make the school fund sacred by Constitutional pro­vision, let us make it all sacred. Why leave out the words “ or otherwise,” and say only by taxation, when there is so con­siderable a fund from other sources that goes to common school purposes? If we are going to guarantee its integrity, so that the General Assembly shall never disturb it, or appropriate it to any other purpose, let us doit. We have now in the section, as it stands, that guarantee. I do not want the common school fund taken for the purposes of normal schools. I do not want any of it taken for any college or any other thing, except the common schools. Will not the people of the State have the advantage of every dollar of it? It is a sacred fund, and hold so by our fathers in the Constitution of 1849, and we are here guaranteeing its inviolability, that it shall not he diverted for any other purposes, and I say let us provide that all of it shall he held so.
Mr. NUNN. While I do not feel that there is any necessity for the words “or otherwise,” still I am willing to put them in my substitute.
Mr. BECKNER. Then, if that is done, there is no use of your substitute. The substitute gives more latitude than the sec­4576 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,]
tion as it stands now amended "by the amendment of the Delegate from Oldham, which prevents the Legislature from in­creasing the .A.. & M. tax.
Mr. MACKOY. Does not the substi­tute do away with the confounding of the distinction between eleemosynary institu­tions and educational institutions, which the amendment of the Delegate from Lex­ington does ? It leaves that subject free from doubt.
Mr. BECKNER. Yes. I am not op­posed to that; but' the House has declared for the section as it is, an d I am satisfied.
Mr. BRONSTON. I oflfer an amend­ment to the substitute. *
Mr. NUNN. I want to put in the words “ or otherwise.”
The amendment of the Delegate from Lexington was read, and is as follows:
Amend the substitute by adding after the “purposes” the words, “and for the endowment and maintenance of the Agri­cultural and Mechanical College.”
Mr. BRONSTON. I object to the sub­stitute of the Delegate from Crittenden. I do not like this friendship expressed for the A. & M. College tax.
Mr. NUNN. We have had one speech in opposition to this substitute.
The PRESIDENT. The gentleman has offered an amendment, and under the rules he can speak for five minutes.
Mr. BRONSTON. I repeat, that I do not appreciate this friendly manifestation for the A. & M. College that comes in such disguise, and, particularly, in that character of disguise, wherein they say they are not willing to give recognition to that institu­tion by a mere mention of its name in the Constitution. The gentleman has offered a substitute for the report of the Commit­tee, which was acted upon by a very lengthy discussion yesterday afternoon. He only adds a little sugar-coating, pro­viding that the tax now imposed for educa­tional purposes shall remain until fixed by law. But be precedes that with language
[March 11...
which has been used, and which has been, amended, and what is his language? He- says “the interest and dividends of said fund, together with any sums which may be produced by taxation or otherwise for the purpose of education,” shall he used what way? “Shall he appropriated to the common schools, and to no other pur­poses.” .Why use that language, if you do not mean to say that any sum raised for the purpose of education shall he held for common schools, and for no other pur­poses. Can any other meaning he given to the language? Is it not as plain as the- alphabet? You say that no sum raised by taxation or otherwise for the purpose of education of any kind, or all kinds of edu­cation, shall he held for common school purposes, and for no other.
Mr. NUNN. That is exactly what it. means. The gentleman does not misun­derstand my purpose; but the next part of the section provides that the people of the State, by a vote, can enter into higher edu­cation. ■
Mr. BRONSTON. That has been- set­tled by the Convention. This' is hut a re­newal of the insidious attack on this insti­tution, and the gentleman says he does not. want to mix this up with these quasi edu­cational institutions. I say to the Dele­gates on this floor, who are better lawj’ers than I, and I say it as not only my judg­ment, hut as the judgment of one of the Judges of the Court of Appeals, and two or three other lawyers to whom I submitted it, that if this question is passed, that the broad language used by the Committee, and which the gentleman now wishes to. inject in his substitute, would exclude the Legislature from making any appropria­tions for this institution. The gentleman may not have been a member of a Legisla­ture, but certainly he knows that before the Legislature ever makes a tax levy, whether of forty-two, forty-seven or fifty cents, it requires a statement from the Auditor as to- the probable cost of running the govern­Mackoy—
Buckner—Bronston.
EDUCATION. 4577
Wednesday,]
ment; and in that statement is included the cost of the salaries of the officers, the ex­penses of various kinds, what is necessary for the institutions for the education of the Deaf and Dumh, Blind and Feeble-minded Institutes, the Normal School, and they add t hose sums together, and provide foT such a levy as will cover them.
Mr. NUNN. These institutions are supported on the idea that they are chari­ties. '
Mr. BRONSTON. I deny it. It is in the form of a charity, but why indulge in such hair-splitting theories when you do not hurt the institution ? That which has been adopted by the Convention says, first, that the Legislature shall provide for a system of common schools. Second, that the common school fund shall he held sacred and inviolate5 that the provisions now made by law for the maintenance of certain institutions—the Normal School for colored people—you do not want to strike that down; the Institution for the Blind, you do not want to strike that down ; the Institution for the Deaf and Dumb, the School for Feeble-minded Children shall remain as now fixed hv law until changed. What objection does that produce ? The gentleman from Oldham has offered an amendment this morning which we have not objected to, which says that the Legis­lature shall have no power to increase the tax now imposed for the A. & M. College. Is not that a perfect system; how can the gentleman better it, and if he cannot, I ask you to have the manliness and come out before the Convention and say that he is not in favor of the A. & M. College; that he wants to strike it down ? The gentle­man claims that he is not in favor of it, and I want to ask him-----
Here the gavel fell.
Mr. NUNN. 1 would like t,o ask the gentleman a question.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, that can he done.
Mr. NUNN. When I say in that sub­**
[March 11
stitute that all taxes levied for educational purposes shall remain until changed, does it or not mean exactly what your amend­ment means, except that it does not name the colleges?
Mr. BRONSTON. No, sir; because- you have, immediately preceding, that pro­vision affecting it, and the Court would construe the two together. You have a. provision that all funds raised for common school purposes shall be used for that, and nothing else.
Mr. NUNN. “Provided, it shall not apply to the tax levied for the educational purposes until changed by law.” •
Mr. BRONSTON. That means you shall do a thing, provided you do not. know it?
The PRESIDENT. The debate is ex­hausted.
Mr. MACKOY. I would like to offer an amendment.
The amendment was read, and is as fol­lows :
Insert after the word “ purposes,” and before the word “ education,” the words. “ common schools.”
The PRESIDENT. The question is on the amendment of the Delegate from Lex­ington, which has just been read.
The section, as it would read if the- amendment of the Delegate from Lexing­ton was adopted, was read.
Mr. FUNK. It seems to me that this matter has been discussed over and over again, and no one in the world will he- injured by it, so I move the previous ques­tion.
Mr. MACKOY. I would like to say one word on the amendment I offered.
The PRESIDENT. That cannot be done unless the Delegate from the- Seventh District of Louisville withdraws- his motion.
Mr. FUNK. I withdraw it.
Mr. MACKOY. I shall vote against, the amendment of the Delegate from Lex- | ington, and I want to show that his object.
N unit—Bronston—Mackoy.
4578 EDUCATION.
■Wednesday,] Elio S STO IT— M ACKO Y— WOOD. [March 11.
can he attained by adopting the substitute of the Delegate from Crittenden with the amendment I have offered. With my amendment the substitute of the Delegate from Crittenden will do that which the Convention desires to accomplish, viz: Re­lieve this section of the confusion of terms •which confounds educational and elee­mosynary institutions.
Mr. BRONSTON. How can it affect that ? Suppose it is held that you are mis­taken ?
Mr. MACKOY. I do not think I can be mistaken. '
Mr. BRONSTON. But suppose you are?
Mr. MACKOY'. If I am, it leaves the question open. The proviso of the Dele­gate from Crittenden is, that all taxes now levied for education shall be continued un­til changed by law. That language is gen­eral. It applies to the Blind Institute and the Institute for Deaf Mutes, if they should be held to bo educational institutions. The -original section provided that money raised for educational purposes should be devoted to common schools. By inserting the words “common school,” it would provide that money raised for common school purposes shall be devoted to such purposes, and, therefore, obviates one of the objections which the Delegates from Clark and Lex­ington had to the section, and obviates the objection I had to the section, in that it named certain institutions, and confounded the distinction which should exist between eleemosynary institutions and educational.
Mr. BRONSTON. I trust the Conven­tion will vote down that substitute and all amendments; but, of course, if the Conven­tion is of a different opinion, 1 trust that the amendment offered by myself, as well as the amendment offered by the Delegate from Covington, will first be inserted in the substitute.
The PRESIDENT. Debate is exhausted •on this question.
Mr. BRONSTON. I am talking on his amendment. • '
The PRESIDENT. But his amend­ment is not up.
Mr. WOOD. Regular order.
Mr. PUNK. I move the previous ques­tion .
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point of order that the amendment of the Delegate from Oldham is not in order.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will de­cide that when the question comes up.
Mr. MACKOY. I think this amend­ment is very important, and I, therefore, hope the previous question will not be ordered.
A vote being taken, the main question was ordered.
The amendment of the Delegate from Lexington was read.
Mr. BRONSTON. On that I call the' yeas and nays.
Mr. BECKNER. I second it.
The result of the roll-call was as follows :
yeas—48.
Allen,.C. T. . Hogg, S. P.
Amos, D. C. Hopkins, P. A.
Applegate, Leslie T. Johnston, P. P. Auxier, A. J. Lewis, W. W.
Beckham, J. 0. Beckner, W. M. Bennett, B. P. Brents, J, A. Bronston, C. J. Brown, J. S. Buckner, S. B. Bullitt, W. G. Carroll, John D. Edrington, W. J. Parmer, II. H. Forrester, J. G. Punk, J. T. Glenn, Dudley A. Goebel, William Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. C. Hendrick, W. J.
Mackoy, W. H. May-, John S. McHenry, John J.
. Moore, J. H.
Moore, Laban T. Pugh, Sam’l J, Quicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Sachs, Morris A. Smith, H. H.
Straus, P. P.
Swan go, G. B. Trusdell, George West, J. P. Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. P Mr. President Clay.
NAYS—39.
Allen, M. K. Ayres, W. W. Birkhead, B. T. Blackburn, James Blackwell, Joseph
James, A. D. .Jonson, Jep. C Kirwan, E. B. Passing, L, W. Martin, W. H.e d u c a t io n . 4579
Wednesday,]
N LTNN—BliONSTON.
[March 11.
Bourland, H. B. Brummal, J. M. ■ Buchanan, Nathan Burnam, Ourtis F. Coke, >J. Guthrie Cox, H.
DeHaven, S. B. Pori's, W. F. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T.
Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M. Hanks, Thus. H. Hines, Thomas H. Jacobs, B. P.
McChord, Wm. 0. McElrov, W. J. Miller, Will Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T.. J. Parsons. Bob’t T, Petrie, H. G Pettit, Thus. S.
It odes, Robert Spalding, I. A. Twyman, I. W. Whitaker, Emery Wood, J M. Young, Bennett H.
absent—18.
Askew, J. F. Berkele, Wm. Boles, S. H. Chambers, G. I). Clardy, John D. English, Sam. B. Hines, J S. Holloway, J. W. Kennedy, Hanson
Knott, J. Proctor McDermott, E. J. Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. P. O'Hara, B. H Phelps, John L Phelps, Zack Smith, W. Sc-ott Washington, George
So the amendment was adopted.
The section, as amended, was then read; also the amendment of the Delegate from Covington, and the substitute of the Dele­gate from Crittenden. ’
Mr. NUNN. I either omitted the word “ education” or the Clerk failed to read it in my substitute. I would like to have it inserted.
This was done, and a vote being taken, the amendment of the Delegate from Cov­ington was adopted.
The PRESIDENT. The question re­curs on the adoption of the substitute of the Delegate from Crittenden as amended.
Mr. BRONSTON. On that I call the yeas and nays.
Mr. NUNN. I second it.
Mr. BRONSTON. I would like to have the Secretary report the section as already adopted by the Convention for which this substitute is offered.
This was done; also the substitute as amend- d.
The result of the roll-call was as fol­lows :
TEAS—48.
Allen, C. T.
Amos, D. 0. Applegate, Leslie T. Ayres, W. W. Birkhead, B. T. Blackburn, James Bourland, H R. Brummal, J. M. Buchanan, Nathan Buckner, S. B. Burnam, Ourtis P. Coke, J. Guthrie Cox, H.
DeHavon, S. E. Doris, W. P.
Durbin, Charles Elmore., T. J.
Field, W. W.
Forgy, J. M.
Hanks, Thos. H. Jacobs, R. P.
Janies, A. D.
Jonson, Jep. C. Kennedy, Hanson Kivwan, E E. Lassing, L. W. Lewis, W. W. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. McChord, Wm. C. McElrov, W. J. Miller, Will.
Moore, J. H.
Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
Pettit, Thomas S. Rodes, Robert Sachs, Morris A. Spalding, I. A. Twyman, I. W. Whitaker, Emery- Wood, J. M Young, Bennett H.
nays—36.
Allen, M. K Auxier, A. J, Beckham, J. C. Beokner, W. M. Bennett, B. P. .Brents, J, A. Bronston, C. J. Brown, J. S. Bullitt, W. G. Edrington,' W. J. Parmer, H. H. Porrester, J. G. Punk, J. T. Glenn, Dudley A. Goebel, William Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. 0. Hendrick, W. J
Hogg, S. P. Hopkins, F. A Johnston, P. P. May, John S. McHenry, John J. Parsons, Rob’t T. Petrie, H. G.
Pugh, Sam’l J. Quioksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Smith, H. H.
Straus, P. P. Swaxigo, G. B. Trusdell, George West, J. P. Williams L. P. V. Wool folk. J . P.
Mr. President Clay.
absent—21.
Askew, J. F. Berkele, Wm. Blackwell, Joseph Boles, S. H. Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Clardy, J ohn D. English, Sam. E. Hines, J. S.
Hines, Thomas H. Holloway, J. W.
Knott, J. Proctor McDermott, E. J. Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. F. Moore, Laban T. O'Hara, R. H Phelps, John L. Phelps, Zack Smith, W. S«50tt Washington. George
So the substitute was adopted. .
A vote being- taken, the section, as amended, was adopted.4580 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,] Brorston—Jonson.
[March 11.
Section three was then read, and is as follows:
Sec. 3. The General Assembly shall make provision, by law, for the payment of the interest of said, school fund. The Gen­eral Assembly may make provision for sale of the stock in the Bank of Kentucky; and in ease of a sale of all or any part of the stock in the Bank of Kentucky, the proceeds of sale shall be invested by the Sinking Fund Commissioners in other good interest-bearing stock or bonds, which shall be subject to sale and re-investment, from time to time, in like manner, and with the same restrictions, as provided with ref­erence to the sale of the said stock of the Bank of Kentucky.
The CLERK. There are no amend­ments to that.
Mr. BRONSTON. I offer an amend­ment to section four.
Mr. JOKSON. We have had informa­tion that these shares, are worth more than their face value; that they would sell for one dollar and seventy cents on the one dollar, aud, of course, that amount of money placed out at interest would yield a greater income to the common school fund than the dividends upon the seventy-three shares of bank stock. That was our reason for making that provision in this report.
A vote being taken, section three was adopted.
Section four was read, and is as follows:
Each county in the Commonwealth shall be entitled to its proportion of the school fund on its census of pupil children for each school year; and if the pro rata share of any school district ho not called for af­ter the second school-year, it shall be covered into the treasury, and placed to the credit of the school fund for general apportion­ment the following school year. The sur­plus now due the several counties shall remain a perpetual obligation against the Commonwealth for the benefit of said re­spective counties, for which the State of Kentucky shall execute its bond, bearing interest at the rate of six per centum per annum, payable annually to the counties respectively entitled to the same, and in the proportion in which they are entitled, to be used exclusively in aid of common schools.
The CLERK. To that there is an amend­ment offered by the Delegate from Lexing­ton. Strike out the words after school year,, in the third line of section four, and insert the following: .
The General Assembly shall make pro­vision for the payment of bond for surplus due to the counties of the State in the sum of three hundred and seventy-eight thou­sand nine hundred and forty-six dollars and! seventy-one cents: Provided, however, That the payment thereon shall be applied, as the General Assembly may prescribe, to the im­provement of the common schools in the respective counties.
Mr. BRONSTON. Instead of moving to strike out, I move to add that. I find from reading it that it does not accomplish the purpose I intended. I agree entirely with the views expressed by the Chairman of the Committee, that possibly thei*e ought not to be any further inducement to coun­ties in their failure to have common schools taught within the county; therefore, I shall not insist on striking out the words, so that hereafter it will he that if the por­tion belonging to any school district is not called for in two years, at the end of that time it shall be covered into the treasury I think it is well enough to serve notice on. the common school districts of each county that if they do not teach common schools, the fund, which is by law allowed to that county, will, after two years, he cov­ered into the general county school fund; but as the Delegates have seen from the pamphlet report made by the Superin­tendent of the Public Instruction placed on the desks of each one, various of the counties of the State, in accordance with the provision of this. Constitution, have it. set apart or a y?msi-reinvestment made of it, by the State making a bond for it, it be­longs to the county; the other counties used theirs, and my amendment provides it 'shall be the duty of the General Assembly, instead of holding that fund, and paying to the counties, as it does now, the interest on it, that they shall make provision for the appropriation of the fund to each countyEDUCATION. 4581
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according to the amount each was entitled to under the report we have before us.
Take the county of Adair; the amount •coming to them is $1,972.47 ; the State of Kentucky holding that money, and appro­priating six per cent, interest on it to the county of Adair. The county of Adair is entitled to that money under the Constitu­tion of 1849, which expressly provides that the fund which was allotted to each county should be held sacred, and kept separate and reinvested for the benefit of that county. This has been going on since 1849, and that fund has been accumulating. Now, it strikes me it is just that the county should have the benefit of it in order that they may employ better teachers ; in order that they may erect better school-houses; in order that they may advance in every way the common school interest of the en­tire county. Take the county of Christian. It is entitled to $15,358. It belongs to the county.
This Convention, by adopting the amendment of the Delegate from McLean, says that you pfopose to have that held sacred for each county. Why not require the Legislature to apply it to the interest of the county, because the county has failed to get the benefit of it in the past 7 The county of Graves is entitled to $13,931; Trigg county, $11,000; the county of Pike, $10,507; and I know that the good people of the county of Pike would hail with joy the appropriation of that money which belongs to that county, in order that they may erect better school-houses, make better provision for tire education of their children. That is the meaning of the amendment that I submit to the consideration of the Convention.
Mr. JONSON. I want to send up and have read an additional section, which I propose, because, I think, it oovers the ground much better:
The sum now held in trust by tbe State for tbe use of the common schools in the several counties, amounting to $378,946.71, which has been accumulated, and been rein­[
March 11.
vested, out of sums not called for by the school districts in the various counties, shall be held inviolate, and appropriated only for the maintenance of common schools, and shall continue to be held for . the several counties in the same proportion as it was accumulated, and reinvested for them.
Mr. JONSON. I believe that the adop­tion of the amendment bffered by the Delegate from Lexington would dissipate this fund, and that the fund would be squandered. I believe that it would im­pose upon the Commonwealth of Ken­tucky an additional burden, sometimes calling for an extra assessment, in order to pay this $378,946. .
Mr. BEONSTON. If I thought that, 1 would not have offered it. I suggest to the gentlemen that there has just been turned over to the Commonwealth six hun­dred thousand dollars, and, I think, the first debt the Commonwealth should pay is this school fund, which it appropriated without authority of law.
Mr. JONSON. I have not come to the conclusion that the people of the counties ought to he permitted to take charge of this fund for the purpose of putting it in school-houses. I do not believe that was the spirit actuating the last Convention, when they adopted what they did in regard to common schools. I think it altogether much better that this amendment be voted down, and the additional section offered by myself adopted.
Mr. BEOKNEE. Does your amend­ment apply to the county surplus already due?
Mr. JONSON. To that, and that alone.
Mr. BEOKNEE. Does the amendment deal with that hereafter accruing?
Mr. JONSON. That has been accumu­lated, and has been misappropriated, and that is what I want to govern, and the accumulation hereafter is covered by the report, which provides, unless it is called for within two years, it shall be turned I into the treasury.
Bkonstox—Jonsov—Beckner.
4582 EDUCATION.
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Mr. BECKNER. That properly be­longs to the county, and cannot be dis­tributed. .
Mr. BRONSTON. I provide that shall be turned over to the county—what is coming to them now.
Mr. BECKNER. The old Constitution says it shall be reinvested.
Mr. HENDRICK. I do not think it should be turned over to the counties. That money is a part of the common school fund: '
The PRESIDENT. Debate is exhausted on this.
Mr. BRONSTON. This is a very im­portant matter,' and I move that we sus­pend the five-minute rule until we cun dis­pose of this matter.
The PRESIDENT. Then the debate will be under the twenty-minute rule.
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried. ■
Mr. HENDRICK. I do not desire twenty minutes, or the half of it. It oc­curs to me, when I heard the argument of the Delegate from Lexington, that this was a very important matter. I do not con­ceive that the fund of three hundred and seventy-eight thousand nine hundred and forty-six dollars and seventy-one cents is, in any sense, the property of the counties of. Kentucky. If I understand the pro­vision in the Constitution of 1849, it was .a dedication fund there made for the pur­poses of common school education in the State of Kentucky. If I understand this response of the Superintendent of Public Instruction, these sums are credited to the counties when it has not been called for or demanded by the county, and, in my judg­ment, it has become a part of the common school fund of Kentucky.
Mr. BRONSTON. "What is the law upon which you make that statement ?
Mr. HENDRICK. The law upon which I make that statement is the provision of the Constitution of 1849, and the fact that is everywhere recognized that the failure
[March 11.
to appropriate to a particular fund leaver the entire matter in the general fund tt which it originally belonged.
Mr. BRONSTON. Allow me to read the provision. Of course the gentleman is too good a lawyer not to be able to deter­mine this thing correctly. “ The General Assembly shall make provision by law for the payment of the interest on said school fund, provided that each county shall be entitled to its proportion of the income of said fund, and if not called for for common school purposes, it shall be reinvested from time to time for the benefit of such coun­ties.”
Mr. HENDRICK. Yery well now, I say that that was the dedication of the original fund to the school fund of Ken­tucky. These accumulations have been, under the Constitution of 1849, graded tO' the separate counties, but they are accre­tions to the general fund’, and it is within the power of this Convention to take that lump sum and add it to the common school fund of Kentucky.
Mr. BRONSTON. Thatthe Convention refused to do on yesterday. They voted that that should not be done. Allow me to ask the gentleman this question. What right has the State of Kentucky to take this money which the Constitution said should he held sacred, and re-invest it and spend it for other improvements, or waste it or execute its bond"
Mr. HENDRICK. None in the world. No more than she had to spend a half a dozen other magnificent funds that have been donated; but I do not understand she has done it. I understand this fund is for the purpose of education, whether in a gen­eral fund or appropriated to the different counties. I contend that it would be wise in this Convention—the dedication of that three hundred and seventy-eight thousand nine hundred and forty-six dollars and ninety-one cents, and 'that other million and a half odd dollars to the common school fund, demonstrate the fact that
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there is an interest in this matter. I say let it remain in the coffers of the State, and the interest on that three hundred and seventy-eight thousand dollars will he quite I nice sum to distribute annually through­out the State of Kentucky to the common schools.
Mr. BRONSTON- How much is Flem­ing county entitled to? •
Mr. HENDRICK. A very small sum, $442. I did not know that until just before I got up.
Mr. BRONSTON. So the gentleman would like to take this $10,000 from the county of Pike, and give it to the countv of Fleming ?
Mr. HENDRICK. No, sir. There never has been any opportunity for the Delegate from Lexington to make just that kind of dig at me that he has not availed himself of the opportunity. Fleming county is able to take care of herself, arid has as good a school in my vicinity as any school that they have in Lexington. I say, if you permit this money to be paid over to the counties, it will he absorbed, and will never do the educational interest of the State any thing like the good that it would do by remaining in the school fund.
Mr. AUXIER. I would like to have reported the amendment offered by the Delegate from Lexington.
The Clerk reported the amendment as heretofore. '
Mr. BRONSTON. Will the gentleman permit me to interrupt him for one mo­ment? I find most of the Delegates have mislaid this communication, which was sent to the President of the Convention, and I would like to have the Secretary read it for the information of the Dele­gates.
The PRESIDENT. Does the Delegate ' from Pike yield for the purpose indicated ?
Mr, AUXIER. I will yield for that purpose.
The PRESIDENT. There being no
objection, the Secretary will read the com­munication.
Mr. BURNAM. I move that the read­ing of this report be dispensed with. It will take up a great deal of time -unneces­sarily.
Mr. BRONSTON. What isthe purpose of dispensing with it? Are the Delegates tired of hearing it ?
Mr. BURNAM. I believe they are.
A vote being taken, on a division, the motion was carried.
Mr. AUXIER. Mr. President, if the amendment proposed by the Delegate from Lexington goes no further *than he claims it does, I shall heartily support it; that is>- that any surplus that may accumulate in any county hereafter is to go into the gen­eral school fund; but there are reasons urged why this fund already accumulated should not he so appropriated. I only speak of it as it affects the section of the country from which I come. I want to- show that there were reasons and circum­stances over which the people in my sec­tion of the country had no control under which the present fund owing to them was accumulated. The greater part of that fund was aecumated because of the lack of facilities for having schools and of having them taught, during the great war through which this country has gone, in that sec­tion of the State. First one military com­mand would have control, and then the other side, and the people were so distm-bed by reason of tramping of armies that the schools could not be taught. And that is a poor section of the State, where we need all of the fund coming to us appropriated .to the several counties on account i-f the school not having been taught.
It would be unjust now to take that fr m us, which was appropriated to us under the present Constitution. The statement which I have made in referenee to the cause of this accumulation, was that of the unfortunate military control—that is the greater part accumulated in thatEDUCATION.
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[March 11.
time, two-thirds of it at least—and I will vote now to have this fund, which may
■accumulate in the future, to go into the ■general fund, if you will allow us to have the benefit of the accumulation that now belongs to us. In my, county, it adds twelve cents to the scholar. "We get that much, in addition, by reason of this fund ■already accumulated, and- I take it—al­though I am not very clear upon the prop­osition—that the amendment of the Delegate from Lexington does not go any further than to apply to this accumulation now on hand.
Mr. ELMORE, I am very much ■astonished that the gentleman from Flem­ing should propose to take this accumu­lated fund belonging to the respective counties of the State, and throw it all into one common fund. I did not know that he had so much of the Agrarian feeling and spirit in him as to make any such proposition to this Con­vention. Now, sir, according to the pro­visions of the Constitution, every county has a right to this fund, and it is as much their fund as any species of property be­longing to any of the respective counties; that each county shall he entitled to its proportion of that fund, and if not called for .for common school purposes, it shall be re­invested, from time to time, for the benefit -of said county.
Now, sir, Graves county has nearly thirteen thousand dollars of this fund. "What has caused the neglect in drawing it, I am not prepared to say. But we all know that schools fail to be taught from the fact that the services of teachers cannot- he procured. Sometimes a teacher dies;
' sometimes we fail to get a teacher. Now, the gentleman from Fleming proposes to throw it all into a common fund. Why, you might as well go to Graves county and dig up a part of our court-house square, and sell it,and put the money derived from it in the State treasury, and appropriate it for the general purposes of the State, as to
take this fund from my county, or from any of the other counties to whom this fund belongs.
It is an Agrarian stop, and one that this Convention ought not to be guilty of. It is not democratic; it is not republican. I have nover made, a threat on this floor to vote against any Constitution we may make. Frequently I have hoard such throats made, and it has been painful to me to hear them. ,
Mr. STRAUS. Will the gentleman permit me to ask a question ? ’ Is the debt of your county in proportion to theauiount due to Graves county 1
Mr. ELMORE. No; nor is yours and other counties I could name. Now, since this Convention began, I have been writing up a report of the proceedings and Bunding it to my county papers, and speaking a« favorably of the work of the Convention as I knew how, and, I believe, my county papers have been very quiet about this Convention, and that they think tolerably well of the work done during our long continued session; but I say that, if you take this money away from Graves county, and throw it in the general fund, I will not only from this lime endeavor to throw the six thousand votes in my county against this Constitution, but I will ride through every county in my district and throw whatever influence I have against it.
Mr. BECKNER, I agree with the gen­tleman from Graves that the accumulated fund of $378,OCX), which is represented by a bond already executed by the Stute to the Board of Education, represents the fund belonging to the respective counties, and that fund is held in trust for these counties, and wo have no more right to take it and divide it out generally, or to appropriate it to any purpose other than common schools, than wo have to take from these counties any other property they have.
Mr. HENDRICK. Let mo interrupt you for just tor one word. There is no propu-EDUCATION. . 4585
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-sition here to appropriate it for any pur-
pose other than the common schools. The -suggestion is that it he added to the com­mon school fund. It is a question of laches cm the part of these counties who have not availed themselves of this money. It is left as a part of the common school fund, and my suggestion is that it should he ap­propriated to the common school fund, and used alone for that purpose.
Mr. BEOKN ER. I differ with the gen- ’tletnaa; it is not a matter of laches. It has been caused by a series of circumstances which the people of these counties could not
■ control. They have not sinned away then- day of grace at all, any more than a man would sin away his right by simply choos­ing not to use property that belonged to him. If I have n horse that I do not
■ choose to use this year, am I to be told that I shall not have the right to use it next 'year ? If a farmer chooses not to cultivate his land in one year, is he to he told that it shall not belong to him the next year ? This fund is dedicated by the present Constitu­tion to those counties to which, under the ilaw, it was to he distributed, and having •been dedicated to them, and the Constitu­tion providing that itshall be held for then- benefit, it is a trust, and the State is merely the trustee, and I hold that we have no right to put a provision in this Constitu­tion taking that money from these counties. It is their property, it belongs to them, •and upon what principle of justice and ■right can we say that they shall he de­prived of their property without public ■necessity, and that,too, without just compen­sation previously made. It is clear that the Commonwealth lias no power-whatever over what it has once dedicated to a special purpose. That fund was dedicated to the counties; it was reserved for their benefit, and fixed for them in the Constitution, and if it is taken now and turned loose to be used simply for the purpose of building school-houses in certain counties, or for any ■other purpose that may be construed to be
289
for the benefit of the schools, if it is to he diverted from its original purpose of pro­viding for common school education, for instance, to pay for the erection of school buildings, it is confiscation without excuse or right.
. Mr. HENDRICK. Why, that is ex­actly my reason for opposing the amend­ment of the Delegate from Lexington.
Mr. BECKNER. I am opposing that amendment, too. I am opposed to dis­turbing this fund. I am anxious that that accumulated fund shall go to the purposes it was intended for. The report of the Com­mittee provides that the fund hereafter shall not accumulate; and if it does accu­mulate, then, in the second year, if the county fails to draw the amount owing to it, it maybe turned into the State treasury, and used for the common school purposes of the State, and to he distributed again. The counties will understand that hereafter. But we must bear in mind that this fund has been accumulated under the present Constitution, and what I object to is the • injustice in taking it from them now arbi­trarily, when it was expressly declared to he a fund, dedicated to these counties, and a trust held by the State. Hereafter, they will act, under notice of the new Constitu­tion, that if they fail to withdraw that amount within a certain time, they will lose it altogether.
. Mr. BRONSTON. I want to say one word in response to the argument of the distinguished gentleman from I'leming. There are many gentlemen here to-day who were not present on yesterday, and a short statement of the matters proposed here in this discussion may be useful to them. The report of the Committee con­templated that this hoard of $378,946.71 should he blended with the other fund into one bond, and in that way appropriated to the general common school fund. The . Convention, by a vote, on yesterday, struck out these words, and repudiated the4586 EDUCATION.
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proposition now advocated by the Delegat from Fleming.
Now, Mr. President, in support of the proposition made by myself, I desire to say this: Let us look at this in a plain, practieal'and business-like way, and see if the position I have taken is not correct and just. By the Constitution of 1849, there were certain resources named which were to become a common school fund. The Constitution provided that that should be apppropriated to the county upon a certain basis. "What was that basis? Upon the basis of the number of school children within the school age in each county. Now, in order that no injustice should he done, in order that no county should get the benefit of a fund that belonged to an­other county, the Constitution expressly provided that if, by any sort of misfortune or casualty, any part of this fund was not used by each county, that it should he held inviolate and re-invested for the benefit of that county. Now, Mr. President, from 1849 down to the present time, for reasons which we cannot state upon this floor, for reasons that I am satisfied no Delegate can give as to his county, there has accumulated a certain fund which has been held in part sacred. That was a fund of money, and it ought to be to-day in the treasury of the State of Kentucky in money, or it ought to have been re-invested in paying stocks , and bonds, and these stocks and bonds ought to-day he in the treasury of the State of Kentucky, held as a sacred fund for these counties. But the State of Kentucky saw proper to do what ? It borrowed that money from the counties, and executed its note for it. And it is a good bond, it is a good note, and the only question is this: are you will­ing to loan’ this money that belongs to your county to the State of Kentucky at six per cent, interest, or can you better use it by asking the State to pay your debt, give you the money, and appropriate it for the benefit of the common schools ?
Mr. HENDRICK. I would. like, then,, to ask the gentleman what his amendment proposes ?
Mr. BRONSTON. My amendment pro­poses simply that the Legislature shall provide that these funds shall be appro­priated to these counties respectively for- commen school purposes.
Mr. HENDRICK. Is it not appro­priated now to these counties for common school purposes, and was it not contem­plated to be used by the counties for com-- mon school purposes in the present Con­stitution ? .
Mr. BRONSTON. I say that the ques­tion before this Convention now is, are these counties willing to allow the State of ’ Kentucky to hold their money at six per ­cent, interest to he used for common school purposes, or can they do better by having the principal paid them, and leaving it to them to use it to better advantage if they can ? I say that is a plain, common sense, business proposition.
Mr. MAT. I would like to ask the- gentleman a question. Suppose Kentucky should get tired of paying six per cent, on this debt, do you not think it should have- the right to' make some change in regard to the matter ?
Mr. BRONSTON. What sort of change?'
Mr. MAT. Well, paying the debt.
Mr. BRONSTON. I will answer the , question. As the report now stands, there- is no provision made as to this fund. Of course the Convention must make one of two provisions. It either must make a provision continuing this loan to the State- of Kentucky, or it must provide for the payment of it.
Mr. L. T. MOORE. I would like to ■ submit one question to the gentleman from Lexington, and I want to ask it for infor­mation, because I have such great confi­dence in that gentleman’s ability, and it is this: Do you not believe it would be better- to keep this fund in the treasury and pay the interest on it to these counties, rather-EDUCATION. 458?
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than to pay the debt to them now ? And do you not believe that if the principal was paid to these counties that it would he wasted? Would it not be better, in your judgment, to keep the principal intact, and pay the county the interest ?
Mr. BRONSTON. I will say this, that the gentleman can answer that best for his county, and I believe that each Delegate on this floor knows best what are the needs and the demands of the county he.repre- sents. But I say there is but one of these two courses to be pursued which will he entirely7 just to the counties. Now, if the county of Boyd, as the gentleman from Pike has said, prefers to loan this money to the State at six per cent., it has a right to do so, hut I was moved to making this proposition because, in my judgment, I may be wrong, but I believe there is not a county in the State of Kentucky to­day that cannot take this accumulated fund and appropriate it at once to the common school interest in that county with profit better than they can by the amount they will get from year to year in interest on that fund; and that the children of these counties will derive larger benefits from the common school education. Now, I do not know how it maybe with the county of Pike. The gentleman representing that county here may have ail the advantages needed for common school education-----
Mr. A TINIER. Well, he has not.
Mr. STRAPS. Will the gentleman from Lexington allow me to ask him one ques­tion ? How is the State of Kentucky going to get the money to pay this $378,­000.
Mr. BRONSTON. I was just going to tell you. It can be done in the easiest way in the world, and if they do not take it, the great State of Kentucky will be exactly as it has always been. This money ought to have been held in stocks and bonds, and not wasted and spent. There is to he paid in a short time by the General Government to the State of Kentucky something -over
[March 11.
$600,000. That sum does not belong to the State; it is a gift to the State. It comes from the direct taxes which have been paid, and I have no doubt there are many Dele­gates on this floor who have contributed a part of that direct tax to the Govern­ment—
' Mr. BECKNER. I would like to ask ■the gentleman a question.
Mr. BRONSTON. I would be glad to. answer the gentleman ; hut I am now un­dertaking to answer the question put to. me by the Delegate from Fleming, and if I have the opportunity, I will answer the- Delegate from Clark with pleasure in its- regular order.
Mr. BECKNER. I have an amend­ment pending which proposes to turn over that Government money to the common school fund, making it apart of the com­mon school fund. Now, I understand the gentleman wants to take that, and distri­bute it among the counties.
' Mr. BRONSTON. The gentleman is mistaken. I do not want to take it—I merely want to explain the status of that matter, so that every Delegate here will properly understand it, and then to leave it to them to say whether he wants to con­tinue this loan to the State, or to get the money for his county.
Now, I will continue my answer to the Delegate from Bullitt. I say that fund will soon he paid to the State of Kentucky by the Federal Government. It is in the- nature of a bonus to the Stale. There are vai-ious individuals scattered all over Ken­tucky—and I have the misfortune to'' be one of them—to have to pay part of that debt, and it is the first debt that I ever had to pay, and I paid to the United States Government on this direct tax fifty dollars. Now, that fund is to be paid to Kentucky shortly, and the question is, what we shall do with it.
I say that within less than six months,, when the Legislature meets, some skillful,, shrewd speculator who owns Crab Orchard
Bbonston—Auxier—Beokner.
;4588 EDUCATION.
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•Springs, or some other place of that sort, will he lobbying in the Legislature to get the State to buy it at an enormous price. And before they have an opportunity of wasting that money in such a way, I say, let us set aside $378,000 of this fund to pay this debt to these counties.
Now, Mr. President, one thing more, and I am done. I cannot speak of other Dele­gates on this floor, but I assume that the county of Graves, and that the county of Union, and that the county of Christian, and that the county of Trigg had these funds, they could build better school- houses, and instead of being able to teach their schools for five months of the year, they could have their schools taught for ten months in the year. They could make up what has been lost to the children of the past to the children of the present and the future. It belongs to you. You have the right to use it within your respective counties, and I would love to see, Mr. President, above all things else, the $378,­' 000 spent at once within these respective
• counties in building school-houses in which the children could be comfortably
• received to pursue their studies, and I believe that each county has the right to do that. I say that it is a ques­tion for each Delegate on this floor to
• determine for himself, and whatever that •determination may he, whatever the law, •as laid down by the Legislature, may he, I
will he perfectly satisfied with—either to take the money, which belongs to my people, and use it, or to loan it to the State
• of Kentucky at six per cent, interest, as my ,people may see fit, or as the people of the ■ counties, represented by the various Dele­gates here, may think it will he to their •best advantage.
Mr. -HENDRICK. I want to respond -.to what has been said by the Delegate from Graves and the Delegate from Lex­ington. My original proposition was right. I do not care whether the fund is kept in nts present shape, and the interest paid
annually to the county, or whether it is made part of the school fund of Kentucky, and paid ratably to the counties; hut I tell you that the proposition of the Dele­gate from Lexington means a dissipation of this fund. After a careful examination of the Constitution of 1849, I say this fund was never dedicated to any other purpose than for the purpose of sustaining the common schools; and you cannot, in the spirit of the Constitution of 1849, appro­priate ‘a single dollar of it towards the building of any single school-house. Com­mon school purposes means for sustaining a system of common schools in the State of Kentucky. It does not mean building school-houses in any county.
Mr. BRONSTON. That is not the lan­guage of my amendment. My amendment is exactly in accord with that provision for common school purposes.
Mr. HENDRICK. Yes, but you pro­pose to have the State pay this fund into the counties, which means a dissipation of the fund. I have no objection to the Del­egate from Graves, Pike, or any other Delegate on this floor, drawing its propor­tion as it has heretofore the amount of in­terest on that fund; but I object to any provision which proposes to dissipate that fund for the payment of the respective counties.
Mr. STRAUS. Would it not he wise to leave that fund as it is, and leave the coun­ties to draw the interest?
Mr. HENDRICK. Precisely. And I want to ask the Delegate from Lexington what better bond you can have than a six per cent, bond of the State of Kentucky ? That bond is perpetual, and the interest upon it is paid every year to those counties. Now, my friend from Graves thinks it is Agrarian to take that fund and add it to the common school fund. I am willing to suffer the soft impeachment, and leave it as it is; hut I insist that the fund shall re­main intact, and he dedicated, as it has been heretofore, to common school pur-EDUCATION. 4589
Wednesday,] May—Bronston—Beckham. . [March 11.
poses, and the interest paid to those to whom it belongs.
Mr. MAY. I say “ let justice be done though the heavens fall.” I think I can show to the Delegates on this floor that in­justice has been done to some of the coun­ties in this State; but before I undertake to do that I wish to say that I am in favor of leaving these bonds, if you call them county bonds, of this fund, or sum which has accumulated from surpluses as it is, until it can be provided by law that these debts shall be paid off to the respective counties which are entitled to these amounts.
Mr. BEONSTON. How much interest do you propose to make the State pay ?
Mr. MAY. I think, perhaps, there
would be a lower rate of interest after awhile, and the State would not be willing to pay six per cent.
Mr. BEONSTON. Are you willing to take less than six.
Mr. MAY. No, sir.
Mr. BEONSTON. You propose to make the State pay that ?
Mr. MAY. Individuals are paying
eight per cent, to the banks. "What I wish to say is this: That each county should have its interest distributed each year for the benefit of the common school districts; but if you will bear with me for a moment I will show that there has been a wrong done in some way, and it ought to be cor­rected.
Mr. BECKHAM. Will the gentleman pardon me? I want to send up a substi­tute, and desire to have it read. It is offered for the amendment of the Delegate from Lexington. I ask to have it reported.
The substitute was read, and is as fol­lows :
The surplus now due to the several coun­ties shall remain in perpetual obligation against the Commonwealth for the benefit of said respective counties.
Mr. MAY. Before I proceed I want to say that I am as sound as a silver dollar on
the school question. I want to say that we have a hundred and forty schools taught each year in Pulaski county, and two graded schools at the city of Somerset, and the benefit of these graded schools to our community cannot be estimated. Before they were chartered and put into operation we had scarcely any schools at my town. We have now, and I say that for the benefit of some of those who are opposed to higher education, a professor from the State of Ohio. He superintends these two graded schools with a corps of twelve teachers ui>- der him, and they are doing efficient and successful work. They are building up the- schools in our town. Now, I proceed to show where the injustice has certainly been done. Let me illustrate. What was the last county formed ?
Mr. YOUNG. The county of Carlisle-..
Mr. MAY. Upon examination, I find that Carlisle has no county bond as shown by the report of the State Superintend­ent. It was taken from the counties of Ballard and Hickman, and there has cer­tainly been injustice done there. .
Mr. EDEINGTON. Let me correct the gentleman. In the division, this fund was divided, too. Ballard is entitled to one-half and Carlisle to one-half. The- report does not show that.
Mr. MAY. I thank the gentleman for the information. That shows that justice- was done in that particular. I do not know whether it is so in the Stale gener­ally.
Mr. McCHOED. If this proposition, fails, how will this money be distributed in each county after they gat possession, by districts, or what means ?
Mr. MAY. I am not in favor of its be­ing given to the counties. I am in favor of letting it remain as it is, until it shall, become necessary. Let the General As­sembly arrange that.
Mr. McCHOED. Would it not bring about confusion in the county finding out an equitable way of distributing it?4590 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,] Mat—Hanks—JBullitt. [March 11.
Mr. MAY. Likely it would. If you
■ should undertake to put it where it justly belongs, there would be a great deal of difficulty in doing so, because the districts have been changed. Hence, 1 say,it is bet­ter to let it remain as it is, and let the State
■ still pay the counties the pro rata of the interest upon the surpluses.
Mr. HANKS. My people seem to have forgotten what they were entitled to. I expect my opinion might be worth some­thing, and mv opinion is that we had bet­ter let the State keep the fund than to dis­tribute it among the counties. Therefore,
I favor that as a disinterested person.
Mr. MACKOY. I want to offer an amendment. t
The PRESIDENT. The amendment is not in order, as it is an amendment in the third degree.
Mr. BECKHAM. I would like to have the amendment offered by'the Delegate from Covington reported for informa­tion .
The CLERK. The amendment is to add to the substitute of the Delegate from .Shelby these words:
For which the State of Kentucky shall ■execute its bond, bearing interest at the rate of four per cent, per annum, payable isemi-annually to the counties respectively ■entitled to the same, and in the proportion in which they are entitled.
Mr. BECKHAM. I move to strike out four and insert six.
The PRESIDENT. That amendment itself is not in order, and can only come up by the Delegate from Shelby agreeing to it.
Mr. BECKHAM. If the gentleman will strike out the four, and make it six, with interest payable annually, I will accept it.
Mr MACKOY. I am willing to do that.
The amendment of the Delegate from Shelby was accordingly changed.
Mr. BULLITT. Gentlemen of the •Convention, I am unwilling that this im- I
putalion of wrong-doing, by the people of my end ofthe State, shall go unanswered upon this floor. It is true that several counties in that part of the State have the surplus, hut that surplus arises from con­tingencies that even you gentlemen would be guilty of. The apparent dereliction of those people are in counties where there are school districts that are small, and where the citizens are poor. They have to wait until they can get a school-house built before they can have a school teacher. Sometimes there is a dispute among the pati'ons of the school which results in the failure to get a teacher. Sometimes they cannot secure a teacher on the small pit­tance that the Commonwealth gives to the school districts. In no instance in my Congressional District has it been that the schools have failed to he taught because of the willful desire to prevent the. schools from being taught.
I will challenge any gentleman on this floor to point out a single instance where it has been because of willful dereliction. I know there are school districts within the Circuit Court district in which I live that are holding on now until the school fund can he accumulated sufficiently to enable them to get a school-house by taxing them­selves, or by contribution to get a school- house. Schools cannot be taught without school-houses, and school-houses cannot he erected in a day or week unless you have money to do it with. The neighbors frequently congregate, and hew logs, and build their school-houses without cost, and in those log-houses they teach persons of as t good morals and as pure patriotism as any­body in this house or anywhere else. Are you going to take from them the accumu­lation whbh they have been looking to to enable them to have schools in which to have their children educated. That fund is as sacred a fund as any obligation on the part of the Commonwealth can possibly be. It is drawn from those very people, who are seeking now to have theEDUCATION. 4591
"Wednesday,]
‘benefit of their schools, and raise the means to build school-houses. .It is drawn by taxation. It is true that the original starting of the fund was the accumulation of bank stock; that was supplemented by the distribution of money that had accumulated upon the tax to pay the war debt of 1812, which was not given to the State, but loaned for school pur­poses.
That fund, which was loaned to the State -of Kentucky for school purposes, was accepted by the Commonwealth as a trust fund, and that trust fund was bound to be equally distributed among the citizens of the Commonwealth of Kentucky. The Legislature and the Constitution of 1849 required an equal distribution among the counties of the Commonwealth, claiming that was as near equality among the people ■as they could reach, which, 1 am satisfied, was the correct rule, and under that correct rule has accumulated to these various ■counties a portion of the money which the ■ counties have not, by willful neglect, per­mitted to accumulate, but because, under the circumstances, they could' not control; and now to take that away from them, and give it to other counties that have exhausted their fund, would be a simple outrage, and an injustice that no citizen of tbe Com-, mon wealth of Kentucky ought to be willing . to tolerate for a single moment. In the First Congressional District there is the sum of eighty odd thousand dollars which ■has accumulated. I think no man in this ■Convention can complain of the exercise of •the common school system in the First . District. The people there have supple­mented the pittance they get from the Commonwealth, in order to keep up the •schools. It is true we have had to send to •our alma mater, the University of Virginia, and the University of North Carolina, and •other States, to get our teachers. The ■teachers have not come from the A. & M. College, which we were entitled to, accord­ing to representations made hy gentlemen
[March 11.
on this floor. We have had to send outside of the State to get our teachers. We have good teachers. We educate our own peo­ple, our own young ladies, at the graded schools, and put them to teaching in the common schools. .
Mr.HENDRICK. Tou are thoroughly in favor, as I understand you, of the amendment proposed hy the Delegate from Shelby as amended by the Delegate from Covington ?
Mr. BULLITT. I am not. I want the State to authorize or allow such coun­ties as want it to get this fund, and let the counties that do not want it let it stay here on interest.
Mr. HENDRICK. Has not the Court of Appeals decided that no part of this can be used for building a school-house ?
Mr. BULLITT. I do not think the Court of Appeals can control our actions in this matter.
Mr. HENDRICK. I mean under the Constitution of 1849.
Mr. BULLITT. I understand that; but we have gotten around that. They have waited until the fund was suffieientl}’ accumulated,. and they have taxed them- selvee to build school-houses, and in that way got around the prohibition as pro­nounced by the Court; but, I say, until the fund gets big enough to pay for a teacher longer than three months in the year, it would be utter nonsense for them to undertake to teach. If a child goes three months, and then stays at .home nine months, he forgets all that he learned during the three months. So that they want to arrange it in 'a way that they can have at least five months school in a year,, and I would very greatly prefer eight months, and until we get tbe common school system up to that point, so that we can have eight months, it lacks greatly of being a perfect system. Now, this common school fund ought to be used in the way that it will foster the welfare of the common schools to the greatest extent.
Bullitt—Hendrick.
4592 EDUCATION.
■Wednesday,] Bullitt—Sthaus—Goeuel. [March 11.
If it is necessary to have these accumula­tions to build school-houses, let the county have it; and if it is not necessary, but the county desires to let it remain here on in­terest, let it remain here on interest. We have embarked on this system, and let us go on with the work until we make it a perfect system, or as near perfect as it can be made. I believe that the best system and the best common school method is to have common schools taught in every school district in. the State. That is the way our people are endeavoring to do. They tax themselves, not relying upon the pittance that comes from the Common­wealth, hut they are taxing themselves to build up these graded schools, and when they pass through the graded schools, if there are any children who desire to go further, I believe it is the duty of the Com­monwealth to furnish them with the means of going further; and if the A. & M. Col­lege is not equal to the occasion, let us make something that is equal to the occa­sion, and blot that out.
If it will carry them on through the higher course of education required, let us foster it; but if it fails to perform that, leave it in the Legislature to withdraw all assistance from it; but if it can be made a perfect institution that will answer the pur­pose and carry a child on to the higher course of education, let it be in the power of the Legislature to foster it. I tell you if we fix it so that we cannot withdraw assistance from it, we have no control over it. You are tied hand and foot by the Constitution, and you cannot do any thing.
I have, therefore, voted, in all the motions . we have had, with a view to enabling' the - Commonwealth to contribute to the A. & M. College; but, at the same time, that it might have the power to withdraw all its contributions. But, returning to the prop­osition of what shall be done with these accumulation, the State has no right to withdraw it in morals or in law. It may authorize the counties touse it; but it cannot |
take it away from any one county and give- it to another, without committing an act of spoliation and robbery. It belongs to the- county where it accumulated, according to the Constitution, and to take it away from those counties and give it to other counties- is a species of robbery and spoliation we have no right to do. •
Mr. STRAUS. I move the previous- question on this section and all amend­ments. ,
A vote being taken, the motion was car-­vied. '
Mr. GOEBEL. I ask unanimous con­sent to bring in the report of the Committee' on General Provisions. I move that the- same he printed, two hundred copies, and. allow it to fall in the Orders of the Day.
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried.
Mr. HENDRICK. I move that the Convention adjourn. .
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried, and the Convention thereupon ad­journed.
AETERNOON SESSION.
The Convention was called to order by. President Clay.
The PRESIDENT. The Clerk will first­. report the pending section, and then the- first amendment thereto.
The CLERK.. The first amendment in­order is the substitute offered by the Dele­gate from Shelby to the amendment offered, by the Delegate from Lexington to section four. The amendment offered by the Dele­gate from Lexington reads: ,
Amend section four by adding thereto- the following: “The General Assembly shall make provision for the payment of the- bond for surplus due to the State in the- sum of $878,946.71: Provided, however,. That the payment thereon shall be applied,, as the General Assembly may prescribe, to- the improvement of the common schools in. the respective counties,”
The substitute for that amendment of­fered by the Detegate from Shelby is-:EDUCATION. 4593:
W ednesday,] Elmore— Bronston—Beckner. [March 11.
The surplus now due the several comities, shall remain a perpetual obligation against the Commonwealth for the Benefit of the said respective counties, for which the State- of Kentucky shall execute its bond, bear­ing interest at the rate of six per cent, per- annurn, payable annually, to the counties- respectively entitled to the same, and in the proportion in which they are entitled, to be used Exclusively in aid of common, schools.
Mr. ELMORE. I have offered a sub- stitute-for section four, and withdraw the- one I offered on yesterday.
The PRESIDENT. The Delegate must understand that the Convention is now acting under the previous question on sec­tion four and amendments, and he can only offer his amendment now by unani­mous consent. Is there objection to tlie- Delegate offering his amendment at this stage ? There is none, and it may be sent to the Clerk’s desk.
,Mr. BRONSTON. I also wish to withdraw the amendment that I offered heretofore.
The PRESIDENT. There being no ob­jection, the Delegate from Lexington with­draws his amendment.
Mr. BECKNER. I move to strike out the words “six per cent.,” so as to make it read “ payable annually.” '
The PRESIDENT. The previous ques­tion has been ordered, and the amendment is not iirorder. But the Chair will order a suspension of further proceedings for the present, as there are not a sufficient number of Delegates here to transact busi­ness. ■
Mr. TWYMAN. And I move a call of the roll for the purpose of seeing which members are present.
The result of the roll-call was as fol­lows: '
PRESENT—61.
Allen, C. T. ■ Amos, D. 0. Auxier, A. ,J. Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. Beckner, W. M.
Kennedy, Hanson Lassing, L. W. Lewis, W. W. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. McChord, Wm. C.
Bennett, B. E. Birkhead, B. T. Bourland, H. R. Brents, J. A. Bronston, C. J. Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M. Buchanan, Nathan Bullitt, W. G Burnam, Curtis E. Cox, H.
DeHaven, S. E. Doris, TV. E. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Graham, Samuel Hanks, Thos. H. Hopkins, E. A. James, A. D. Jonson, Jep. C.
McElroy, W. J. McHenry. John J. Miller, Will.
Nunn, T. J.
Parsons, Rob’t T- Petrie, H. G.
Pettit, Thos. Si Pugh, Sam’l J. Quicksall, J. E„. Rodes, Robert Smith, H. H. Spalding, I. A. Straus, E. P. Twyman, I. W. West, J. E. Williams, L. P. V; Woolfolk, J. E. Young, Bennett H. Mr. President Clay..
absent—49.
Allen, M. K. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. E. Berkele, Wm. Blackburn, James Blackwell, Joseph Boles, S. H. Buckner, S. B. Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Olardy, John D. Coke, J. Guthrie Edrington,W..J. English, Sam. E. Earner, H. H.
Eield, W. W. Eorrester, J. G. Eorgy, J.. M.
Punk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Goebel, William Harris, Geo. C. Hendrick, W. J. Hines, J.„S.
Hines, Thomas, H.
Hogg, S. E.
Holloway, J. W. Jacobs, R. P. Johnston, P. P. Kirwan, E. E.
Knott, J. Proctor May, John S. McDermott, E. J.. Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. Ft. Moore, J. H.
Moore, Laban T.
Muir, J. W.
O’Hara, R. H.
Phelps, John L. Phelps, Zack Ramsey, W. R.
Sachs, Morris A. Smith, W. Scott Swango, G. B. Trusdeli, George Washington, George- Whitaker, Emery Wood, J. M.
The PRESIDENT. The result of the call shows that there is no quorum present-
Mr. PETTIT. I move that the Con­vention take a recess.
Mr. YOUNG. I think the motion is entirely unnecessary, because there are at least twenty members that can be called in> a minute, who are now looking at the mili­tary hoys drilling.
The PRESIDENT. The Secretary wills•4594 EDUCATION
Wednesday,] Bkonston—James—Jobson. [March 11.
report the substitute of the Delegate from ■Shelby.
The Clerk reported the substitute offered •by the Delegate from Shelby to the amend­ment of the Delegate from Lexington as heretofore.
Mr. BRONSTON. I wish to inquire as to what was done with the amendment 1
•offered to that substitute?
The PRESIDENT. The Delegate of­fering the substitute accepted the amend­ment, and incorporated it in his substi­tute.
Mr. BRONSTON. Then on that I call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. JAMES. I second the call.
The result of the roll-call was as fol­lows:
yeas—62.
Allen, C. T.
Allen, M. 1C.
Amos, D. C. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. F. Auxier, A. J.
Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. Beckner, W. M. Bennett, B. P. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Brents, J. A.
Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M. Burnam, Curtis F. •Coke, J. Guthrie Cox, H.
DeHaven, S. E. Doris, W. E.
Durbin, Charles Edrington, W. J. Elmore, T. J. Parmer, H. H. Forrester, J. G. Forgy, J.M.
■Glenn, Dudley A. ■Goebel, Wm.
Harris, Geo. C. Hogg, S. P. Hopkins, F. A.
Jacobs, R. P. Jonson, Jep. C. Johnston, P. P. Kennedy, Hanson Lassing, L. W. Lewis, W. W. Mackoy, W. H. MeChord, Wm. C. McElroy, W. J. McHenry, John J. Miller, Will.
Moore, Laban T. Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
Parsons, Rob’t T. Petrie, H. G.
Pettit, Thos. S. Pugh, Sam’l J. f^uicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Spalding, I. A. Straus, F. P. Swango, G. B. Trusdell, George , Twyman, I. W Washington, George West, J. F. Whitaker, Emery Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. F. Young, Bennett H.
bays—12.
Birkhead, B. T. Hanks, Thos. H. Bronston, 0. J. James, A. D. Buchanan, Nathan Martin, W. H.
Bullitt, W. G. Rodes, Robert
Field, W. W. Smith, H. H.
Graham, Samuel Mr. President Clay.
absent—26.
Berkele, Wm. Blackburn, James Boles, S. H. Buckner, S. B. Carroll, John D Chambers, G. D. Clardy, John D. English, Sam. E. Funk, J. T. Hendrick, W. J. Hines, J. S.
Hines, Thomas H. Holloway, J. W.
Kirwan, E. E. Knott, J. Proctor May, John S. McDermott, E. J. Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. F. Moore, J. H. O’Hara, R. H. Phelps, John L. Phelps, Zack Sachs, Morris A. Smith, W. Scott Wood, J. M.
Before the result was announced-----
Mr. JONSON. I ask for the calling of the absentees.
The Clerk called the Delegates not vot­ing. '
And so the substitute, as amended, was adopted.
Mr. BHLLITT. I desire to offer an ad­ditional substitute.
The PRESIDENT. That is out of or­der.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the Delegate from Graves as a substitute for section four, as follows : “ The amount heretofore accumulated from the appropriation of the common school fund, based on the census of school children in each school district which has not been called for, or used by any county for com­mon school purposes, shall remain to the credit of said county, and the Common­wealth shall issue its bond for the ag­gregate amount of said sum, at the rate of six per cent, per annnm inter­est, which interest shall be paid to each of said counties in proportion to the respective amounts so credited to the same, and be used for common school purposes of said counties respectively; and if hereafter any portion of the common school fund, which any county shall he en­titled to, shall, for any cause, not be called for or used by said county, the same shallEDUCATION. 4595
Wednesday,] Beckotsk—Seraus—Jacobs. [March 11.
from time to time, he invested by the Com­monwealth for the benefit of the common schools of said county.”
A vote being taken, the amendment was rejected.
The Clerk again reported section five. ;
To which section the Delegate from .Rowan offers the following amendment:
Strike out the word “ children,” in line one, so. that the section will read: “ Schools for the white and colored children shall be kept separate.”
Mr. BECKNER. I desire to offer a substitute for that, which is section four in my report.
The CLERK. The Delegate offers the following as a substitute for section four :
In distributing the school fund, no dis­tinction shall be made on account of race or color, and separate schools for the white and colored children shall be main­tained.
Mr. BECKNER. In the report of the Committee there is no reference made to the requirement that there shall be no dis­tinction made by reason of race or color; and while it may he contended that the amendment to the Eederal Constitution cover's that point, still I think it would he a serious mistake to omit it here, and that it would he a serious defect in this Consti­tution if that was not recognized. It is true we have a statute on the subject that provides for this; hut, still, in making a Constitution, I think we ought to insert it, so that it cannot be changed hereafter. I think that provision should be inserted in the organic law of the State, giving to the colored people of the State full assuarance that their rights shall be recognized for all time to come. The section, as reported by the Committee, I think, unquestionably, could be met with the objection that, under the Constitution of the United States, the penalty could he imposed for requiring ■colored children to go to separate schools. My amendment provides that separate schools shall he maintained. There is an opinion that was rendered by Judge Bax- |
ter, in which he stated the law to be, that any officer administering any law requiring colored children to be kept out of school, because they were colored, would be amenable under the United States laws.
Mr. STRAUS. I will ask the gentleman if he does not know that in that .decision the Circuit Judge held that if there' was a school provided for colored children just as good as that provided for white children, that it would be no violation of the Federal laxv ?
Mr. BECKNER. Certainly he did, hut \ the object of my amendment is to avoid that I difficulty, and any other difficulty that : may arise hereafter. I, therefore, insist i that my substitute is better than the section ; offered by the majority of the Committee.
Mr. J ACOBS. I desire to call attention ; shortly to the report of this Committee.
: Section four provides that “ each county in the Commonwealth shall be entitled to its proportion of the school fund on its census of pupil children for each school year.” It is perfectly manifest to my mind as a mat­ter of law that the colored people of the State would he entitled, under this pro­vision, to their share, to their pro rata of this fund, and I rose to simply say that I think the amendment offered by the gentle­man from Clark, and what he has said on the subject, is simply a mere matter of sentiment. I have no objection to it in the world, except that it is useless, and a mere matter of sentiment, as I think.
A vote being taken, the amendment was rejected. '
The Clerk reported the next amendment in order, being the substitute of the Dele­gate from Clark, as heretofore.
A vote being taken, the said substitute, offered by the Delegate from Clark, was adopted.
The Clerk again read section six.
The CLERK. The Delegate from Henderson has offered the. following amendment: '
Strike out section six.4596 EDUCATION.
Wednesday,]
Mr. BECKNER. I desire to offer, as a substitute for that, the section in my re­port, which is section eight.
The CLERK. The amendment offered by the Delegate from Lexington is:
Strike out all after the word “law,” in the fifth line.
Mr. BRONSTON. By way of explana­tion of the amendment just read, I would like to say, that it seems to me that the provision of the report of the Committee is wholly unnecessary, and tends to con­fuse, in my judgment, the proper perform­ance of his duties by the Superintendent of Public Instruction. The words I ask to be stricken out are these:
He shall not be required to manage, or disburse the funds for schools, hut the same shall be managed and disbursed by same officers that manage and disburse the other public funds.
Now, if I understood the reasons as­signed for that provision by the Chairman of the Committee, it was that the Superin­tendent of Public Instruction ought not to be confined to office work, but should be •permitted to visit the schools throughout the State. The law as it is at present does not authorize the Superintendent of Public Instruction to distribute any of the funds. The Superindendent of Public Instruction does not distribute or disburse one dollar of the public funds—he pays no claims whatever. I will not take up the time of the Convention in reading the law relating to the duties of that officer, because each Delegate here has a copy of that, and by reference to page eight of the common school law, and also on page thirty-four, every member may readily inform himself as to the law on the subject. The Auditor collects the revenue; he receives the reve­nue; it is made his duty to keep it separate and distinct, to set. it apart from other funds. It is made the duty of the Auditor to report to the Superintendent of Public Instruction tbe amount yet belonging to the school fund, and it is made the duty of the
[March 11.
Superintendent of Public Instruction—ns a check upon the Auditor, and the Aud­itor as a check upon him—that he shall make out from the census of school chil­dren as to how much each school child is entitled to, and as to how much each school district is entitled to. He is required to make that report to the Auditor, and the Auditor, upon that report, sends out the funds belonging to the respective districts. The Superintendent of Schools of each county, who is required to execute his bond, then distributes it to the schools in the district in accordance with this report made by the Superintendent, and approved by the Auditor, and, as you all know, the County School Commissioner is required to execute a bond. He receives that money, and pays it out. Now, it seems to me, that we will he making a great mistake in this Constitution by declaring that there shall he any change made in the manner of the payment of the school fund, and certainly we will make a great mistake if we remove the check which is imposed by law by having a Superintendent of Public Instruc­tion as a check on the Auditor, and the Auditor as a check on him, and each as a check on the County School Commissioner in the distribution of this fund. Now, with those words stricken out, it would read:
A Superintendent of Public Instruction shall he elected by the qualified voters of the Commonwealth at the same time the Governor is elected, who shall hold his office for four years, and until his successor is elected and qualified. His duties and salary shall he prescribed and fixed by law.
It occurs to me that that is all we ought to say on the subject relating to the office of Superintendent of Public Instruction.
Mr. JACOBS. Mr. Chairman, the Com­mittee put in this clause in the report upon a suggestiou, supported, as we thought at the time, by the very able arguments of the- Delegate from 'Clark. We supposed that he understood this matter better than the- rest of us, because of the fact that he had had far more practical experience than any
Becknee—Bkonston.
EDUCATION. 4597
■Wednesday.]
of the rest of us pretended to hare, and we followed his suggestion. I stated the other day, in making my explanation of this re­port, that it embodied simply the argument that that gentleman, as we understood, made to us, that the Superintendent of Public Instruction should be relieved from . the clerical duties now imposed on him by ' law.
Mr. BRONSTON. Will the gentleman permit me to interrupt him for the purpose of making a suggestion.. The law which I now hold in my hand requires the Superin­tendent of Public Instruction to remain in his office, not for the purpose of disbursing the- funds, because he does not disburse them, but for the purpose of hearing and passing upon disputes and controversies that arise between school officials all o'ver the State.
Mr. JACOBS. I understand that, but I understand that these very duties imposed on him keep him closely to his office, and the idea of the Committee was that he should he relieved from a large portion of these routine duties, and that he should have time and opportunity to go through­out the State, visiting the schools, encourag­ing them, creating enthusiasm in the cause of popular education, and seeing generally how the system was working. The very object of inserting that provision was simply to prevent the putting of any fur­ther duties upon the Superintendent, and further impairing his usefulness.
Mr. McHENRY. I desire to offer an amendment to the substitute.
Mr. STRAUS. I will now move the previous question.
Mr. BUCKNER. I wish first to say one word. As I stated the other day, in justice to the gentlemen of the Committee, and to he perfectly frank, as I wish to as to this matter, I was satisfied with the clause the gentleman proposed to strike out, which was suggested by myself before the Com­mittee. I have felt for years that the Su­perintendent of Public Instruction was
[March 11.
detained in his office by reason of the pres­ent condition of the school law, when lie ought to be in the field creating local inter­est in education. My idea has been to take away from him this clerical work to a large extent, and to give him a law officer— either an assistant or a solicitor connected with his department—to give him the necessary legal information on questions that are constantly presented to him. As it is now, the Superintendent of Public In­struction passes on hundreds of questions yearly that ought to he considered by some officer learned in the law, and competent to decide what the law on the particular ques­tion is. There are constantly controversies and disputes arising in thevarious districts, controversies between Superintendents and trustees, that he Jrnust pass upon. There are a large number of cases that have been brought before the Court of Appeals, on appeal made by one side or the other, from the decision of the Superintendent of Public Instruction. It keeps him busy all the time in discharging duties that ought to be referred to some one else; and were it not for this, he might go out in the country , and see what is being done, arid to exert his influence in the interest of local and general education. The object of my amendment is to obviate the trouble that has existed in respect to that, because I do not think that the section, as presented by the Committee, accomplishes what really I believe the gentleman had in view, and I am, therefore, in favor of the amendment in that regard offered by the Delegate from Lexington. The provision offered by the Committee was prepared and the report made when I was away from Frankfort, and does not reach the objection I have to . the law as it stand? at present.
Mr. JACOBS. If the gentleman would put in the word “apportion," would not that answer the purpose ?
Mr. BECKNER. In part it would.
Mr. STRAUS. I renew my motion for the previous question.
Bronston—Jacobs—Beckner.,4598 EDUCATION.
“Wednesday,] N ton—Rodes—Bkonston. [March 11.
A vote “being taken, the main question was ordered.
The amendment of the Delegate from Crittenden, was read:
Insert the word “apportion” between the words “ manage ” and “or.”
Mr. NUNN. That was offered at the request of the Committee.
A vote being taken, the amendment was adopted.
The first amendment offered by the Del­egate from Lexington was read as hereto­fore, and a vote being taken, the same was adopted.
The second amendment of the Delegate, from Lexington was read, to insert the word “ qualification.”
Mr. BODES. I would Ijke to knowhow far that word “ qualification ” would ex­tend if you leave it to the Legislature to control the qualifications of these officers ?
Mr. BRONSTON. I thought we were under the previous question ?
The PRESIDENTT. We are; but the gentleman was rising to a parliamentary inquiry.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I call the yeas and nays on that amendment.
Mr. HOGG. I second it.
The roll was then called, and resulted as follows:
yeas—38.
Allen, M. K. Kennedy, Hanson
Amps, D. C. Mackoy, W. H. -
Applegate, Leslie T. May, John S.
Askew, J. F„ McChord, Wm. C.
Beckham, J. C. McHenry,. John J. Beckner, W. M. Miller, Will.
Bennett, B. F. Moore, J. H.
Bronston, 0. J. Moore, Laban T.
Brown, J. S, Muir, J. W.
. Buchanan, Nathan Petr^p, H. G.
Burnam, Curtis F. Pettit, Thos. S.
Coke, J. Guthrie Ramsey, W. R.
Gox, H. Trusdell, George
Field, W. W. Twyman, I. W.
Graham, Samuel Whitaker, Emery
Hogg, S. P. Williams, L. P. v.
Hopkins, P. A. Woolfolk, J. P.. James, A. D. Young, Bennett H.
Johnston, P. P. Mr. President Clay. ,
says—37.
Allen, O.