OFFICIAL REPORT
—OF THE -
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES
— IN THE—
CONVENTION
ASSEMBLED AT FRANKFORT, ON THE EIGHTH DAY OF SEPTEMBER, 1890, TO ADOPT, AMEND OR CHANGE THE
CONSTITUTION
—OF THE—
STATE OF KENTUCKY.
FRANKFORT, KY.:
E. Polk Johnson, Printer to the Convention. 1890.
VOLUME II.OFFICERS OF THE CONVENTION
PRESIDENT,
CASSIUS M. CLAY, JR., Bourbon County.
SECRETARIES,
THOMAS Gr. POORE, Secretary, Hickman County. JAMES B. MARTIN, Assistant Secretary, Barren county. JAMES E. STONE, Reading Clerk, Breckinridge county.
REPORTER,
CLARENCE E. WALKER, City of Louisville.
SERGEANT-AT-ARMS,
ROBERT TYLER, Bullitt county.
JANITOR,
TODD HALL, Clark County.
door-keeper.
RICHARD T. HALEY, City of Louisville.1506 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,]
ceivod from our excellent Executive severe censure, wherein lie says one of his Agents sent to bring a man to Kentucky, tele­graphed to know if he could dismiss him if he would pay the money he had gotten under false pretenses, and he telegraphed, “No, it would he compounding felony;” *that he came on to the county, and that when he reached that county, no prosecu­tion was had so far as he was advised, and the party went back; and he assumes that the money was paid, because he wrote to the Commonwealth’s Attorney and received no answer. If that was done, it was a gijeat wrong. The Commonwealth’s Attorney may have failed to respond to the Governor when he wrote to him to institute prosecu­tion. Was it his duty ? Has the Governor the right to command the Commonwealth’s Attorney as to whether he shall institute prosecution against A, Bor C? Is that the .law ? There ■ was a tribunal to which he could have addressed his letter, and that was the Judge who presided at the Court, whose duty it was to look over the records •underneath his eye and see that each and •every official under him, including a Com­monwealth's Attorney, discharged his-re­spective duty. I desire to say, now, that so long as Kentucky retains its Republican form of government, so long as its officers are elected by the people, and held respon­sible to that people for the faithful dis­charge of that duty, that the Executive has no right to direct that A shall be prose­cuted, and that B should be prosecuted, or C should be discharged He may inter­pose, by the exercise of the power that you have seen proper to invest him with, in a pardon before trial, but in that way, and in that way alone, can he thus in­terfere. And you cannot correct it, gentle­men, by establishing this Bureau. The •effort by this amendment to invest one man with .autocratic power is hut in accord with the system which seems to have found lodgment in high official circles in Ken- tufiky, Bureaus to manage and control fln-
[November 22.
ances, Bureaus to direct prosecutions, Bu­reaus to pardon before and after conviction, Bureaus to control your Judiciary, and Bureaus to dismiss from office Executive and Ministerial Officers and fill by appoint­ment. It comes, I know, from an honest conviction, but I beg leave to suggest to the distinguished Delegate from Hart, it comes from a failure, to understand the laws of a great Commonwealth which has honored him as he deserved to be honored, and 1 trust will honor him again.
Mr. H. H. SMITH. I move we adjourn.
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried, and the Convention thereupon ad­journed.
Saturday, November 22, 1890.
The Convention was called to order by the President, and the proceedings were opened with prayer by the Rev Mr. Hen­derson.
The Journal of yesterday’s proceedings was read, corrected and approved.
The PRESIDENT. Petitions are now in order. Reports from Standing Commit­tees. Reports from Special Committees. Motions and resolutions.
Resolutions.
Mr. J. S. HINES. I have a resolution.
The resolution was read, and is as fol­lows :
Resolved, That upon the virtue and in­telligence of the people depend the per­petuation of our republican institutions; and
Resolved, 2. That it is essential that Ken­tucky continue to improve her system of Common Schools; and. in order to do so, the Common School system ought to he separate, with a Superintendent at the seat of government and a Superintendent in each county, elected by the people on ac­count of his fitness, and whose business it shall be to look after the educational inter­ests of the county.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, the resolution will he referred to the Com­mittee on Education.
On Saturday, October 18, 1890, the fol­lowing resolution was offered by the Dele-
Bronston—Smith—Hines.CORPORATIONS. 1507
■Saturday,]
Swango.
[November 22
gate from Montgomery, Menifee, Powell and Wolfe (Mr. Swango). It was not read at the time, and, consequently, was not printed in the debates:
Sec. 1. Corporations may be formed under general laws, but shall not be created by special acts. All laws relating to corpo­rations may be altered, amended or re­pealed by tlie Legislature at any time, and all corporations doing business in this State may, as to such business, be regulated, limited or restrained by law.
Sec. 2. All existing charters, franchises, special or exclusive privileges, under which an actual and bona fide organization shall not have taken place, and business been •commenced in good faith at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall there­after have no validity.
Sec. 3. Corporations shall not issue stock ■except to bona fide subscribers therefor or their assignees; nor shall any corporation i issue any bond or other obligation for the payment of money except for money or property received or labor done. The stock of corporations shall not be increased ex­cept in pursuance of a general law; nor shall any law authorize the increase of stock without the consent of the person or persons holding the larger amount in value of the stock, nor without due notice of the proposed increase having been previously given in such manner as may he prescribed hv law. All fictitious increase of stock or indebtedness shall be void.
Sec. 4. No corporation organized outside the limits of this State shall he allowed to transact business within the State on more favorable conditions than are prescribed by law to similar corporations organized under the laws of this State.
Sec. 5. No corporation shall lease or alienate any franchise, so as to relieve the franchise or property held thereunder from tlie liabilities of the lessor or grantor, lessee •or grantee, contracted or incurred' in the operation, use or enjoyment of such fran­chise or any of its privileges.
Sec. 6. The State shall not in any man­ner loan its credit, nor shall it subscribe to, or he interested in, the stock of any com­pany, association or corporation.
Sec. 7. The exercise of the right of eminent domain shall never be so abridged or construed as to prevent the Legislature from taking the property and franchise of incorporated companies, and subjecting them to public use the same as the property of individuals.
Sec. 8. No corporation, association or individual shall issue or put in circulation as money any thing but the lawful money of the United States. Each stockholder of any banking or insurance corporation or joint stock association shall be individually and personally liable, equally and ratably, and not one for another, for all contracts, debts and engagements of such corporation or association, accruing while they remain such stockholders, to the extent of the amount of their stock therein at the par value thereof, in addition to the amount invested in such shares.
Sec. 9. Any president, director, manager, cashier, or other officer of any hanking institution, who shall receive or assent to the reception of deposits after he shall have knowledge of the fact that such hanking institution is insolvent or in failing circum­stances, shall he individually responsible for such deposits so received.
Sec. 10. All railroad and other transpor­tation companies are declared to be com­mon carriers and subject to legislative con­trol. Any association or corporation organ­ized for the purpose under the laws of the State shall have the right to connect at the State line with railroads of other States. Every railroad company shall have the right with its road, whether the same he now constructed or may hereafter be con­structed, to intersect, cross or connect with any other railroad; and when such railroads are of the same or similar gauge they shall, at all crossings and at all points where a railroad shall begin or terminate at or near1508 CORPORATIONS.
Saturday,]
any other railroad, form proper connections, so that the cars of any such railroad com­panies may be speedily transferred from one railroad to another. All railroad companies shall receive and transport each the other’s passengers, tonnage and cars without delay or discrimination. ,
Sue. 11. No railroad company or other common carrier shall combine or make any contract with the owners of any vessel that leaves or makes port in this State, or with any common carrier, by whieh combination or contract the earnings of one doing the carrying are to he shared by the other not doing the carrying.
Sec. 12. No discrimination in charges or facilities .for transportation shall be made by any railroad or other transportation company between places or persons, or in the facilities for the transportation of the same classes of freight or passengers within this State, or coming from or going to any other State. Persons and property trans­ferred over any railroad, or by any other transportation company or individual, shall be deliveredkt any station, landing or port at charges not exceeding the charges for the transportation of persons ■'and property of the same class, in the same direction, to anymore distant station, port or landing. Excursion and commutation tickets may he issued at special rates.
Sec. 13. No railroad corporation shall consolidate its stock, property or franchise with any other railroad corporation owning a competing line.
Sec. 14. The rolling stock and other movable property belonging to any railroad company or corporation in this State shall be considered personal property, and shall he liable to taxation and to execution and sale in the same fnanner as the personal property of individuals, and such property shall not he exempted from execution *and sale.
Sec. 15. The Legislature shall pass laws establishing maximum rates of charges for the transportation of passengers and freight,
[November 22.
and to correct abuses, and to prevent dis­crimination and extortion in the rates of freight and passenger tariffs on the differ­ent railroads and other common carriers in the State, and shall enforce such laws In­adequate penalties. A railroad and trans­portation commission may he established, and its powers and duties fully defined by­law. '
Sec. 16. Any association or corporation, or the lessees or managers thereof, organized for the purpose, or any individual, shall have the right to contract and maintain, lines of telegraph and telephone within . this State; and said companies shall receive- and transmit each other’s messages without delay or discrimination; and all of such companies are hereby declared to he com­mon carriers, and subject to Legislative control. Railroad corporations organized or doing business in this State shall allow telegraph and telephone corporations and companies to construct and maintain tele­graph lines on and along the rights of way of such railroads and railroad companies, and no railroad corporation organized or doing business in this State shall allow any telegraph corporation or company any facilities, privileges or rates for transporta­tion of men or material, or for repairing their lines, not allowed to all telegraph companies. The right of eminent domain is hereby extended to all telegraph and telephone companies. The Legis­lature shall, by general law of uni­form operation, provide reasonable regu­lations t,o give effect to this section.
Sec. 17. No railroad or other transporta­tion company shall grant free passes, or sell tickets or passes at a discount, other than is sold to the public generally, to any7 member of the Legislature, or to any person holding any public office within this State. The Legislature shall pass laws to carry this provision into effect.
Sec. 18. Railroad companies now or hereafter organized, or doing business in this State, shall allow all express companies
Swango.EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1509
Saturday,]' > Sttango—DeHavei?—Moore. [November 22.
organized or doing business in tliis State transportation over, all lines of railroad owned or operated by such railroad upon equal terms with any other express com­pany ; and no railroad corporation organ­ized or doing business in this State shall allow anjf express corporation or company any facilities, privileges or rates for trans­portation, or men, or materials, or property carried by them, or for doing the business •of such express companies, not allowed to all express companies.
. Sec. 19. Monopolies and trusts shall never be allowed in this State, and no in­corporated company, co-partnership or as­sociation of persons in this’ State shall, di­rectly or indirectly, combine or make any contract with any other incorporated com- • pany, foreign or domestic, through their stockholders, or the trustees or assignees of .such stockholders, or with any co-partnership or association of persons, or in any manner whatever, for the purposes of fixing the price, or limiting the production, or regu­lating the transportation of any product or ■commodity. The Legislature shall pass laws for the enforcement of this section by adequate penalties, and in case of incorpor­ated companies, if necessary for that pur­pose, may declare a forfeiture of their fran­chise. ' '
Mr. DeHAY EN. X move that the Con­vention take, up the further consideration of the "report of the Joint Committee on Executive Affairs.
The vote being taken on said motion, it ' was carried.
Mr. L.VT. MOORE. I desire to offer, as an additional section of the report, the fol- ■ lowing amendment.
The amendment was read, and is as fol­lows:
All the officers mentioned in this article shall he paid, for their services by salary, i and not otherwise.
. The PRESIDENT. That will be con­sidered at the end of the report. Report the next amendment.
The CLERK. The next amendment is
that proposed by the Delegate from Hart:
Amend section 26 by adding, after the words “prescribed by law,” in the sixth line, these words: “The Attorney-General shall be the chief officer of the Department of Justice, to whom all Prosecuting Attor­neys of the Commonwealth shall report, and over whom he shall exercise super­visory control in all criminal and penal prosecutions ; and' the General Assembly shall enact laws to enforce this provision.”
The vote being taken upon said amend­ment, it was-rejected.
The amendment offered by the Delegate from Christian was then read, and is as follows: ’
Add after the W'ords “ Land Office,” in line 5, the words “ Commissioner of Agri­culture, Labor and Statistics.”
The vote being taken upon said amend­ment, it was adopted.
The next amendment, that proposed by the Delegate from Woodford,was then read, and is as follows:
Amend by adding after the word “’law,” in the sixth line of section 26, these words: “All fees collected by either of said officers shall be covered into the Treasury.”
Phe vote being taken on said amend- • ment, it was adopted.
The CLERK. The next amendment is that offered by the Delegate from the city of Lexington to the substitute as proposed by the Delegate from Franklin,
The amendment offered by the Delegate from Lexington is as follows:
The Treasurer, Secretary of State, Regis­ter of the Land Office, Attorney-General, and Commissioner of Agriculture and La­bor Statistics shall be ineligible to re-elec­tion for the succeeding term.
The substitute proposed by the Delegate from Franklin is as follows:
The Treasurer shall be ineligible to re­election for the succeeding four years after the expiration of the term for which he shall have been elected, and the Auditor of Public Accounts shall he ineligible to re­election for the succeeding four years after he shall have held the office for two terms, if he shall have been elected for two sue-1510 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] Brosstois—Jonbon—Washington. [November 22.
eessive terms. The duties and responsibil­ities of those officers, and those of the Attorney-General, Register of the Land Office, Commissioner of Agriculture, Labor and Statistics, and Secretary of State, shall be prescribed by law. Inferior State offi­cers, not specifically provided for in this Constitution, may be appointed or elected in such manner as may be prescribed by law for a term not exceeding four years.
Mr. BRONSTON. For the purpose of having this harmonize with the other, I ask that the word 11 Treasurer ” he stricken out, as it is included in the other, and that those words be inserted after the substitute of the Delegate from Franklin.
Mr. JONSON. I do not see that the Delegate from Franklin is here this morn­ing. I regard this as a very important matter. I favor his substitute for section 20. I also favor it as against the amend­ment offered by the Delegate from Lexing­ton. I anticipated that the Delegate from Franklin would advocate his substitute by some remarks. I believe that is his pur­pose. 1 am not advised as to the cause of his absence, and would like to have the Convention postpone the consideration of this until he'comes in. '
Mr. WASHINGTON. I saw the Dele­gate from Franklin a few moments ago, and he told me would he necessarily absent this morning in the Court of Appeals.
Mr. BRONSTON. I would ask the gen­tleman in what respect does my amendment differ from the substitute of the Delegate from Franklin? We are in perfect accord, and I simply include other officers which his substitute omitted. His substitute ap­plies to the Auditor, Treasurer, and I add the other State officers. ‘
Mr. JONSON. I came to the conclusion that there was some necessity for the amendment proposed. Upon reading them I came to the conclusion that there was a difference. If that is a fact, that there is no conflict, I have no objection to the amendment offered, by the Delegate from . the city of Lexington; nevertheless, I believe the Delegate from Franklin should be ac­corded
a fair opportunity of being, heard upon this substitute, and I hope after this amendment is adopted that then the sub­stitute will he passed until he shall have? had an opportunity of being heard.
~ Mr. BRENTS. I would ask the Dele­gate from Lexington why it is that he makes a difference between the Auditor and the other State officers ?
Mr. BRONSTON. There is no differ­ence between my amendment and the sub­stitute. I concur with it, because the- duties of the office are so complicated that it requires a man two years to fit himself for those duties; and if he proves himself competent and worthy, I think it would be fair to give the people an opportunity to­' re-elect him.
Mr. BRENTS. Why not give the peo­ple a chance to re-elect the other State offi­cers?
Mr. BRONSTON. Because we think four years is long enough for them to- stay in.
The vote being taken on the amendment, offered by Mr. Bronston, it was adopted.
The PRESIDENT. The question is now upon the substitute, as amended.
Mr. HARRIS. In order that the sub­stitute may be like the written report, I offer, as an amendment, the amendment proposed by the Delegate from Woodford, which comes in after the word “ law," in the sixth line: ’
All fees collected by either of these offi­cers shall be covered into the Treasury.
The vote being taken on the amend­ment proposed by the Delegate from Simp­son, it was adopted.
Mr. 0. T. ALLEN. I would like to offer an amendment, striking from the substitute the word “ Treasurer,” so that the office of Treasurer can be made a two-term office. I think it hardly fair to say, that a man who can receive the appro­bation of the people should be limited to a single term. I am willing to make it two-EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1511
i
Saturday,]
Johnston—Cox—Bullitt.
[No vember '22..
terms, like tbe Auditor, and then, after J that, let him be ineligible. !
The PRESIDENT. The Chair insists, in order to prevent confusion, that it is necessary to have all these amendments in writing. ■
Mr. JOHNSTON. I make the point that - within the last five minutes it has been voted in, and can it now he moved to be stricken out ?
The PRESIDENT. That point is good, if it is fact; but that is in the original sec­tion and not in the report.
Mr. COX. I hope very much that the amendment offered by the Delegate from Caldwell'will be defeated. We want those who handle the public money to be brought frequently up to a fair and complete settle­ment, which will prevent the loss of the money of the people. I insist that four years is long enough for any man to handle the public money before a final and com- • plete settlement is brought about. I conse­quently hope this Convention will not.give a Constitutional office a term of eight years without having the accounts settled.
A vote being taken, the amendment of fered by the delegate from Caldwell was rejected.
A vote being taken on the substitute, as amended, it was adopted.
A vote being taken on tbe section, as amended by the substitute, it was adopted.
Mr. BULLITT. Is now the time to move to reconsider the vote by which the section was adopted? I want to be able to let tbe Convention know what they have done.
A votehoing taken on the motion, if was lost.
Section 27 was then read, and is as follows: ■
The General Assembly may provide for- the abolishment of the office of the Register of the Land Office, to take effect at the end of any term, and shall provide by law for the custody and preservation of the . papers and records of said office, if the same he abolished.
The amendment of the Delegate from
Covington (Mr. Mackoy) was read, and is as follows:
Strike out the words “at the end of the term of the present incumbent,” and strike out the word “may,” in the first line thereof, and insert the word “ shall,” and strike out the words “ if the same be abolished.”
Mr. BEGKNER. I have a substitute- for that section, and the Delegate from Covington told me last ’ evening he had concluded to withdraw his amei^ment, as he was satisfied with my substitute.
The substitute of the Delegate from. Clark was read, and is as follows:
A Register of the Land Office shall be- elected at the first election for Governor under this Constitution, and shall hold his office and discharge the duties thereof as now prescribed by law for a period of four- years, at the end of which time said office- shall terminate. The General Assembly shall, prior to the expiration of said office, provide for taking care of the records and archives of said office, and for furnishing and certifying copies thereof.
Mr. BEGKNER I will ask the Clerk to strike out the word “ now ” in that sub­stitute, where it says, “as now prescribed by law," and leave it to read, “ as prescribed by law.” I desire to say abput the substi­tute, that it has been considered by a num­ber of gentlemen in the Convention, and we had a speech on the subject from the Delegate from Floyd, who is not now pres­ent. A number of those best acquainted with tbe circumstances agree -with me that the office is a useless one; that all the pub­lic lauds in the State have been entered, and it is merely multiplying claims on property which already belong to private owners. I do not think anybody can name a portion of tbe Commonwealth in which there is an acre of land yet to be taken up, and yet the Register of the Land Office is issuing, and the Governor is bound to sign, hundreds of patents each month. Since we have been here there have probably been three or four hundred patents issued which would bring clouds on the titles of-other people. This is only complicating the land.! ‘ *
1512 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] McHenry—Beckner—Montgomery. [November 22.
titles of Eastern Kentucky, which is really the greatest obstacle to the development of •enterprises in that section. M en are afraid to buy lands in that region, because they understand it is a matter which involves litigation, and serious care and attention to secure the ownership of a tract of land there.
Mr. McHENRY. I do not understand the difficulty about land titles in Eastern Kentucky. What law prevails there that does not obtain all over the State: that the oldest patent takes the land, and if a man has been in possession for fifteen years, his title is good.
Mr. BECKNER. The law is the same in Eastern Kentucky as in the balance of the State, but the conditions are different. The lands are wild; they are not inclosed as they are in the other parts of the State. There are great bodies of land open, covered with primeval forests.
Mr. McHENRY. Why will not the survey and the boundary line and the old­est patent then cover it ?
Mr. BECKNER. There is the trouble. Who has the oldest patent? The Virginia grants are held by men who have never come to the front. There is no record, ■except in the office of the Register of the Land Office. The parties holding those patents have carried them in some instances ■one hundred years without listing the land for taxation, and when a man buys from the Commonwealth of Kentucky under a patent, and goes to claim possession, he finds some one with an old Virginia grant coming up and claiming it. Of course, the ■old Virginia grant succeeds, if it embraces the land. Thefirstpateilttakes.it out of the Commonwealth. When land passes under a grant, the Commonwealth can no more give another patent for that land than a party can lawfully give a deed for land which he has already conveyed to some one else. Of course, these grants were given before Kentucky became a State •of the Union. • Virginia had granted pat­ents
for hundreds of thousands of acres, and the grants have been located, many of ' them in Eastern Kentucky. The people who came in from Virginia arid North Carolina located them along the lines of travel, and frequently located them one on ■ top of the other, not knowing that the others had been located. Then this State has issued patents, and parties have taken possession and held for yeafe as against the original grantees under the Virginia patents. Of course, possession would give ownership if the Courts would recog­nize the possession ; but the Courts have not said that the possession under which many of the people of Eastern Kentucky hold gives them the right to ownership.
The whole matter: is much complicated.
The difficulty about the Land Office is that men away from the State look at our Con­stitution and find that we have a Register of the Land Office, and, of course, think we have public lands unappropriated; and this enables those who hawk these patents ' around for sale to sell them; and in a ma­jority of cases they are junior patents, and frauds on those who buy as well as oh those who really own the land. This has a ten­dency to destroy confidence in our land titles. •
Mr. M ONTGOMERY. Why not abol­ish the office at pnce ? i
Mr. BECKNER. Some gentlemen say there might be some lands yet to be taken up. I would be willing to abolish it now; but some have insisted to give the office an­other term, so that it would be notice to all the world; and if, perhaps, there should be a piece of land pot 1 yet entered, a patent could be obtained. I find that nearly all intelligent people of that section agree with me that there is no land to he entered, and the work of the office is simply to put clouds on the title of those who think they own it. . ‘
Mr. BLACKBURN. Would this pro­vision impair the title under the Virginia grants?EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT 1513
Saturday,]
Moore—Beckner—Auxier. [November 22.
Mr. BECKNER. No, air. My substi­tute says at the end of four years the Land Office in, Kentucky shall cease; that there shall no longer be notice to the world that we have unappropriated lands. It does not impair anybody’s rights. *
Mr. L. T. MOORE. Is there any pro­vision in your amendment against any further issue of patents ? .
Mr. BECKNER. No, sir. It only says the office shall cease at the end of four years, and that the General Assembly shall provide for the custody of the records and for giving copies.
Mi'. MOORE. Ought not the amend­ment to embrace some provision of that kind? ■
Mr. BECKNER. I would he glad to 'have that done; but I wanted to get what the Convention would give. I thought I would ask this and be satisfied with it, so that at the end of four years it will no longer be given out to the world that we have wild, unappropriated lands, by virtue of the fact that we have a Register of the Land Office provided for in our Constitu­tion. ! .
Mr. AUXIER. I do not know whether the proposition of the Delegate from Clark is a wise one or not. • Nearly every ques­tion relating to lands has been settled by the Court of Appeals; and while it is true that land titles frequently lap, and the same land is patented twice—‘•in my section it is a good deal like the shingles on a house—sometimes two or three patents ■cover the same land. "Whilst it is not necessary to keep this office for the purpose of issuing new patents—because there is no wild land now—yet we have use for this officer for one purpose, at least. I do not attend a Court in my county, or any other ■ county in the Circuit where I practice, but what it is necessary, at every term of the Court, to write to the Register of the Land Office to procure copies of patents that have issued from fifty to one hundred years ago; and it will be necessary in my
' 97 .
county, for the next thirty years, to corre­spond with some officer having the custody and charge of the Land Office. It is of vital importance to us, and we are continually under the necessity of pro­curing copies of these patents which have been lost and destroyed. We want it for the purpose of determining who has the oldest patent. Mr. A has a patent for a tract of land in Pike county, and Mr. B has a patent which covers a portion of the same land claimed hy A. Those patents are lost, and we have to correspond with the Register of the Land Office in order to ascertain by copy who has the oldest and true title to the land. And I think it is now premature to repeal this oflFce. It is so essential to the people of my section to have some officer who shall be the cus­todian of those records, that we my deter­mine and settle our litigation according to the face of the patent, and ascertain who is tfhe real owner of the land in contest. Now, I believe, one proposition by the Delegate from Clark is, to leave these records in the care and custody of the Sec­retary of State or the Auditor, I do not know which. If you do away with this ■ office, the Legislature will be compelled to establish another officer whose duty it shall be to take charge of these - records, and if you make it a secondary office and attach it as one, of the duties of the Secretary of State or Auditor, he will, necessarily, have to have a Deputy or As­sistant Secretary to take charge of these books and records. I can conceive of no more important officer in the Common­wealth of Kentucky than a safe, reliable custodian of its land records Our lands are not held by possession and simple cus­tody, as is personal property, in this Com­monwealth. When a litigation arises between individuals concerning their lands we go hack to the written title and written document as evidence of the ownership of the land, and as long as litigation arises between litigants we will have frequently1514 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] Atjxier-
to refer to the Register of the Land Office, in order to procure copies of the land titles and patents that have been issued since the foundation of our Commonwealth down to the present time; and if we make this office to attach to some other department of the Government,'! apprehend that the same amount of care and skill will not he applied to the exercise of the duties of the office as will be when lett entirely to one man, whose sole duty is to attend to the duties of that office. It might be said, as argued by the Delegate from Clark, that if we leave that entirely to the Legislature, the Legislature will prob­ably be careful in that regard, and not re­peal the office when the people demand a personal exercise of its functions; but the fact that we have no more vacant land in Kentucky does not argue at all that we will not need these records continually; and, therefore, I shall be opposed to the amend­ment offered by. the Delegate from Clark.
Mr. BULLITT. We investigated this question before the Committee, and we find that there are about a half a million acres of land in the mountains of Kentucky that are not paying a cent of tax to the Com­monwealth. Patents issued upon those lands by the Commonwealth of Virginia' about one hundred years ago, and during ' the whole of that time the Commonwealth has never received a single, solitary cent of taxation on it. By virtue of the compact between the States of Kentucky and Vir­ginia, Kentucky is not allowed to issue any patents on those lands,so that the only way for them to be divested from the original pat­entee is for somebody to go upon them and have actual occupation of the lands for fifteen Years. The seven-year statute will not ope­rate, because a part of the seven years’ limita­tion is a patent, which is void. It is posses­sion of seven years connected with a quasi title from the Commonwealth that is neces­sary to enable any one to avail himself of the seven 'years’ limitation; so that the only way to divest these patentees of the j
—Bullitt. [N ovember 22.
title to-that half million acres of land is for somebody to occupy it for fifteen years. The method of the Delegate will only accumulate the difficulty in his section of the country. This Convention ought to pass some "law or provision, requiring a law to he passed by which, if these original patentees fail to come forward and claim that land, and have it recorded in the county in which the land is situated, within five years, it shall be forfeited, and when forfeited, we will then require the Register of the Land Office to issue patents on this half million acres of land. I do not see how it is possible to get rid of the .Land Office at present. We ought not to continue to live here with this half million acres of land in our borders unoccupied and unclaimed, and no taxes paid on it. We have allowed these people one hundred years’ time to come and settle on their land or sell, and they have failed to do it. The lands are there; we have held them without any taxes on them, and still hold them, and if we say to them you must, come in within five years from this day, and claim your lands and pay your taxes as far hack as we have not released the taxes on them. (I think there was a statute in 1875 or 1878 releasing all former taxes which had not been paid.) But make them come forward and make them pay their taxes as far back as 1878, and record their title in the county in which it is situated, or let it be forfeited to the Commonwealth, and let the Common­wealth issue patents on it to thosp who want it. I think this is a clear case. I do not see how else you can get rid of it. To do as the gentleman desires would simply post­pone the evil day, and leave the lands in a condition that whoever may go there and settle upon them, even with a patent from the Commonwealth, without a title from these original patentees, they are constantly in danger of being turned out of possession and lose the improvements they may put on the lands, unless they can be pro­tected by fifteen years of actual oceu-EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1515
Saturday,]
Bullitt—Beckner—Moore.
[November 22.
pancy of the land. So I think, the method adopted by the Committee, of allowing the Legislature at any time to discontinue this office whenever it ceases to be useful is proper. It can not cease to be useful in less than eight years, or we are hound to leave that half million acres of land untaxed and un taxable.
Mr. BECKNER. The question raised by the gentleman from McCracken is an- . other matter, being considered by the Com­mittee on Circuit Courts now. I cannot see how it is necessary to conti nue the Reg- istership of the Land Office in order to dis­pose of -the land that may be found belong­ing- to those who hold these old grants, who have not discharged their duties as citizens in paying taxes.
Mr. BULLITT. If those lands go hack to the Commonwealth, how is it possible to divest the Commonwealth and invest the party who buys the land from the Common­wealth without a patent ?
Mr. BECKNER. "We have a law which covers that now. The land is sold by the Auditor, and he gives a deed. .
Mr. BULLITT. In that character of case, the title is not in the Commonwealth. It is simply the usufruct and possession which is forfeited to the Commonwealth, and .the Auditor’s certificate is sufficient to pass the possession, hut when it comes to title, I ask you how the Commonwealth can pass a title exdept; by patent ?
Mr. L. T. MOORE. I 'understood the gentleman from McCracken to say a few moments ago that the patents which had been issued to the people of the Common­wealth included lands that were granted by Virginia, and those patents were void.
Mr. BULLITT. Absolutely void.
Mr. L. T. MOORE. What good would it be to get any more patents ?
Mr. BULLITT. Forfeit the land to the Commonwealth. Prescribe conditions to the original patentees, and if they fail to comply, forfeit.
Mr. L. T. MOORE. Could it not be
done this way Provide in this Constitu­tion that no fuiJt-er patents should issue, and then provide that any land ascer­tained to be vacant might be sold, and the Commissioner making the sale should make the title for the Commonwealth ?
Mr. BULLITT. They can get tax titles in that way.
Mr. L. T. MOORE. Could not you get the whole rights of the Common-wealth by a provision allowing the Commissioner who sold the land to pass the title ?
Mr._ BULLITT. The Commissioner who sells the land does not pass the title.
M r. MOORE. Can you not authorize him?
Mr. BULLITT. No, sir. When he sells the land for taxes, he cannot pass a title, but simply passes the right of the de­linquent tax-payer; and when the delin­quent tax-payer comes forward and pays his taxes, he gets his land. There is a dis­tinction between passing title and usufruct. The usufruct or possession of the land may be passed by one system, but the title is to be passed by a system peculiar to itself.
Mr. BECKNER. We have had a little too peculiar a system about the Reg-istership of the Land Office.
Mr. BULLITT. The Supreme Court of the United States has passed upon the ques­tion. The State Courts have, by an un­broken line of decisions, from the beginning of the Commonwealth down to the present time, held that you cannot violate that com­pact with Virginia by passing laws, and then there must be office found in. order to authorize a forfeiture, and I propose to create office found, which will operate as a forfeiture by prescribing the time, for them to do certain things, and if they fail to do those things of record, that is office found, and that authorizes a forfeiture.
Mr. BECKNER. The Delegate from McCracken is talking of one thing, and I am talking of another.
Mr. BULLITT. You are talking about the Register of the Land Office ?
Mr. BECKNER. Yes, sir.1516 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] B u l l it t— B eckn e r . [November 22.
Mr. BULLITT. I say that if the things we are talking about have to be done, we have to have a Register of the Land Office to do it.
Mr. BECKNER. There is where we differ. I say when the time comes we will have these lands brought back to the ownership of the Commonwealth by opera­tion of a Constitutional amendment or statute passed by the General Assembly. We will have ample power to provide that the lands owned by the Commonwealth shall pass to the individual who may buy them. The truth is, that those lands held under the old grants have all of them been since patented by the State. It will bu found by inquiry that the State has issued patents-on all such lands, and they are claimed now under authority of the State of Kentucky as well as by those who got their grants from the State of Virginia. I desire to know if the State of Kentucky,after having been once paid for the lands, will, when they have been forfeited to the State, because the parties holding the old Vir­ginia grants have failed to do the things necessary to hold the land, undertake to sell them again.
Mr. BULLITT. Has this land ever belonged to Kentucky? .
Mr. BECKNER. Not if it was granted before Kentucky became a Statfe.
Mr. BULLITT. They were granted by the State of Virginia, and by virtue of their being within the boundary of the State of Kentucky,, the State of Kentucky has the police control over them, and that Com-^, monwealth has never passed a title to the Commonwealth of Kentucky, except by virtue of Its obligation under the compact between the State of Kentucky and the State of Virginia. Those lands are within the borders of Kentucky, and Kentucky has the police control over the land, and, if I may go a little farther, I may say that the Commonwealth of Kentucky never had any thing except the eminent domain. It ccupied the status of the Lord of the E^e. Virginia passed to Kentucky that Lord-
ship of the Eee, but the simple title was already parted with by the Commonwealth of Virginia, and it had no right to part with it again. Now, by virtue of Ken­tucky’s occupying the attitude of Lordship of the Eee, and being entitled to the con­trol of the land in the regulation of the police system of the State, it may cause those titles to be forfeited, but it can never forfeit any thing without office found. It is one of the fundamental principles of our Government. It is one of the principles embodied in the Bill of Rights, which we have but recently adopted. It was in the Bill of Rights of our old Constitution, and we cannot get rid of it. There must be judgment, or, in other words, office found before any thing can be forfeited. I pro­pose that we forfeit those lands, and put them in the hands of somebody to pay taxes on them. Until we do that there is no possible chance to get taxes paid on the lands, and it is unjust to the balance of the Commonwealth to leave those lands in that condition—over half a million acres that we can receive no taxes on. The inhabi­tants of that part of the country are pro­tected as much as the inhabitants of other parts of the State, and those lands ought to help pay the taxes, the expenses for the management of the Government of the State, and I do not see how we can get rid of the difficulty except by forfeiting the land and passing the title to somebody else. They are bound by the compact^vith Virginia not to pass any title, and not to take those lands away, but respect those titles; but it was not the duty to respect those titles and let the people use the lands without paying taxes, and the forfeiture is the only way to get rid of the difficulty.
Mr. BECKNER. The gentleman has given a luminous exposition of a subject which will come before the Convention at a future time. I a,m a member of tbe Com­mittee having that matter in charge, and it will be useful to us, and after awhile to the Convention; but what I insist on is, it hasEXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1517
Saturday,] Beckner—Cox—DeHaven. [November 22.
nothing on earth to do with the question under consideration. If it is found that the people holding Virginia grants shall forfeit them under a clause of this Consti­tution, or under a provision of the General Assembly hereafter, we will have full power to forfeit these lands. What I propose now is to abolish this Begistersbip of the Land Office, which I say is putting a cloud on the titles of people honestly owning the land, and who ought not to be forced to go into Court and litigate about titles that the Com­monwealth, through this officer, has put them in possession of. Now, my friend from Pike has made an objection which is fully covered by my substitute. My sub­stitute provides that the General Assembly shall make provision for the custody of the records and for granting certified copies, so that persons having litigation in Courts about those lands shall get copies of patents and have them properly certified. We find that the Insurance Bu­reau is under the control of the Auditor, and it discharges its duty just as well as if it had a separate department. It is 'an im­portant part of our State Government, and yet it is under the control of the Auditor. Now the Begistership of the Land Office, as I stud before, is an advertisement to the world that the State of Kentucky has wild and unappropriated lands, when the fact is it has none ; yet it is issuing patents con­tinually. Land in Pranklin county can be patented. Anybody who goes and pays five cents per acre gets an order of survey, and the surveyor makes the survey, and then the order and survey are returned to the Begister, and ho issues a patent, and presents it to the Governor, who, under the law, is bound to sign the patent. I have heard the present Governor, and his prede­cessor too, say that they were always squeamish about signing these patents, be­cause they felt, when they were doing it, that they were signing something that might be a fraud on other people. My personal interest is to have these titles as
confused as possible, because I will have chances to make fees in clearing the clouds ; hut my judgment says that we ought to abolish what is not only costing the State money, but is useless and absolutely harm­ful. We ought to do away with every place that is not needed in administering the affairs of Government. It will not do to leave the matter to the General Assem­bly, which may create, but will never abol­ish an office.
The objection of my friend from Mc­Cracken need not disturb this body. In the case of the lands embraced by the old Virginia grants, the “simple title” about which he so learnedly talks has already passed. The State of Kentucky may get control of them by virtue of forfeiture for taxes or some other process yet to be adopted: but it will certainly have power to dispose of the interest if may thus acquire without the intervention of a Begister. ' The diffi­culty in the mind of the Delegate from Pike will be amply met by the provisions of my substitute, and I call the attention of the convention to the fact that no one has controverted my statement that there are no vacant lands in Kentucky.
Mr. COX I have very seldom in my life called for the yeas and nays on any question, but this is a very important mat­ter, and I will call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. DeHAVBN: I second the call.
The roll-call resulted as follows.
Amos, D. C.
Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. Beckner, W. M. Birkliead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. B. Chambers, G, D. .Clardy, John D. Cox, H.
Doris, W. F. Edrington, W, J. English, Bam. E. Graham, Samuel
. . N.
Allen, C. T.
i—28.
Harris, Geo. C. Johnston, P. P. Kennedy, Hanson Lassing, L.W. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. McElroy, W. J. Pettit, Thos. S. Bamsey, W. B. Bodes, Bobert ' Sachs, Morris A. Smith, H. H. Washington, George West, J. F. s—45. .
Jousori, Jep. 0.1518 ■EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,]
Martin—Burnam—Mackoy. [November 22.
Auxier, A. J. Bennett, B. F. Blackburn, James Brents, J. A, Bronston, C. J. Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M, Buchanan, Nathan Buckner, S. B. Bullitt, W. G. Burnam, Curtis F. Coke, J. Guthrie DeHaven, S. E. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Farmer, H. H. Field, W. W.
Forgv, J. M.
Goebel, William Hanks, Thos. H. Hines, J. S. Holloway, J. W.
ABK e:
Allen, M. K. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. F. Berkele, Wm.
Boles, S. H.
Carroll, John D. Forrester, J. G. Funk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Hendrick, W. J. Hines, Thomas H. Hogg, S. P.
Hopkins, F. A. Jacobs, It. P.
Kirwan,' E. E. Lewis, W. W. May, John S. . McDermott, B. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, Will.
Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. F. Moore, Laban T. Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
O’Hara, R. H. Phelps, Zaek Pugh, Sam’l J. Smith, W. Scott Swango, G. B. Trusdell, George Twyman, I. W. Whitaker, Emery Wood, J. M.
Mr. President Clay.
tT—27.
James, A. D.
Knott, J. Proctor McChord, WTm. C. Moore, J. H. Parsons, Rob’t T. Petrie, II. G.
Phelps, John L. Quicksall, J. E. Spalding, I. A. Straus, F. P. Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. F. Young, Bennett H.
So thp substitute was rejected.
The PRESIDENT pro tem. The ques­tion is on the adoption of the section as re­ported by the Committee.
The section was reported.
Mr. MARTIN. Did not the Committee
of the Whole adopt an amendment to that section'!
The P RESIDENT pro tem. The record does not show it.
A vote being taken, the section was adopted.
Mr. BURNAM. I propose to add an­other sectipn to the report, to he numbered 28.” ’ '
The amendment was read, and is as fol­lows : .
. The Attorney-General, Secretary of State,
Register of the Land Office, Auditor of Public Accounts, Treasurer, and Commis­sioner of Agriculture, Labor and Statistics, shall each be at least twenty-five years of age, and shall have been a citizen of the TTnited States and of the State of Kentucky at least five years next preceding his elec­tion.
Mr. MACKOY. I would call the atten­tion of the gentleman to the fact that cer­tain qualifications of certain officers are al­ready provided for under section 24, and it would be proper, therefore, to strike out from his amendment the officers whose qualifications are already fixed by section 24.
Mr. BURNAM. I was not aware of that. In order to make it conform to that section, I will have it to apply only to those officers that are.not embraced by that, and will limit the additional section to the Sec­retary of State, which office is not covered by the previous section. Read the section as it would then stand.
The section was then read, and is as fol­lows :
. The Secretary of State shall be at least twenty-five years of age, and shall have been a citizen of the United States and State of Kentucky at least- five years next preceding his election. .
The PRESIDENT pro tem. There are other amendments that have precedence over that amendment.
The READING CLERK. The gentle­man from Boyd has offered the following as an additional section :
All the officers mentioned in this article shall he paid for their services by salary, and not otherwise. ”
A vote being taken on said amendment, it was adopted.
A vote being taken on the amendment of the Delegate from Madison, it was adopted.
The PRESIDENT pro tem. Report section 28.
The section was read, and is as follows :
The first election under the Constitution, for Governor, Lieutenant-Governor, TreasEXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1519
Saturday,] Ramsey—Clardy—MouTGOMEftY. [November 22.
urer, Auditor of Public Accounts, Begister ■of the Land Office, Attorney-General and Secretary of Slate, shall be held on---------.
Mr. BAMSEY. I have an amendment
*
to that section. .
Mr. CLARDY. I have an amendment.
The amendment of Mr. Bamsey was read, and is as follows :
Amend section 28 by striking out the word ‘‘and,” in the third line of said sec­tion, and after the word “State,” and be­fore the word “shall,” in the fourth line thereof, insert the following: “And Com­missioner of Agriculture, Labor and Sta­tistics.” ■
Mr. CLABDY. I will withdraw my amendment, as it was to the same effect.
A vote being taken, the amendment of Mr. Bamsey was adopted.
The BEADING CLERK. The Dele­gate from Carlisle moves to fill the blank as follows:
The Tuesday after the first Monday in November in the year 1891.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. In considera­tion of the fact that the different Com­mittees who are to report will report dif­ferent lengths of. terms for different officers, and that this question cannot be safely settled until the terms of the different officers are fixed by this Convention, I think it would be best to pass that section until we get through with the question as to the terms of officers, and the times of the election of other officers, so that they may all conform. Therefore, I make the motion to postpone the consideration of this section until a later day in the session of this Convention.
The PRESIDENT. That would post­pone the whole section. The gentleman’s •object would be accomplished by voting ■down the the amendment which has just been read.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I suppose it would be reached better by my motion, which is to postpone the consideration of that section, because it relates to nothing
except the time of election, and not to any other subject.
The motion being put, was carried.
Mr. DeHAVEN. I would like: to ask the unanimous consent of the Convention to insert one word in section 18. It will bo remembered that section 17 was so amended by the Convention as to read thus:. “Should the Governor be impeached and removed from office.” That amendment was adopted. There is also a similar provision in regard to the Lieutenant-Governor. I want that section to read in this way: “If, during the vacancy of the office of Governor, the Lieutenant-Governor shall he impeached and removed from office,” so that identical­ly the same provision will apply to the Lieutenant-Governor as to the Governor. I do not want to have to go through the formality of moving to reconsider the vote by which that section was adopted. .
The PRESIDENT. The Clerk suggests that that section was not adopted, hut an amendment or substitute for the section was adopted. Report the substitute. ■ ,
The READING CLERK. “A Presi­dent pro tempore of the Senate shall be elected by each Senate as soon after it is organized as possible, the Lieutenant-Gov­ernor vacating his seat as President of the Senate until such election shall he, made, and as often as there is a vacancy in the office of President pro tempore, another President pro tempore of the Senate shall be elected by the Senate if in session, and if, during the vacancy of the office of Govern­or, the Lieutenant-Governor shall he im­peached, removed from office—
Mr. DeHAVEN. I want the, word “and” put in before the word “re­moved.” .
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, the suggestion of the Delegate from Old­ham to insert the word “ and ” will be adopted.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I move that the . report of the Committee as amended be printed and recommitted to the Committee,1520 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] Haebis—Johnston—May. [November 22.
with a view of adjusting and making it agree with the reports of other Commit-. tees when they shall he made.
Mr. HARRIS. Before this is recommit­ted, I desire to call the attention of the Convention to section 10. If I understood the purport of the Convention’s action on that section in the amendment that it adopted, the object was to have the appli­cation made to the Governor for a pardon filed away in his office, so that the public might have access to it, and see who the petitioners were, and what representations they had made, and in that way to some extent check misrepresentation^and exagger­ation ; hutl call the attention of the Conven­tion to the fact that as the amendment now stands, that has not been accomplished. After stating that “he shall have power to remit fines and forfeitures, commute sen­' tences, grant reprieves and pardons, except in cases of impeachment,” the amendment says: “And he shall file with each applica­tion a statement of the reasons for his decision thereon, which shall always be open for public inspection ”—that is, “ which statement shall always be open for public inspection.” Under that he can burn up the applications,,if he wants to, or put them in his pocket, and file the state­ment that he makes of the reasons; and that is the only thing that the public can see. I do not think the Convention really meant that. I believe the object of the Convention was to have the applications filed away, so that people might see the applications. '
The PRESIDENT. I would suggest to the gentleman that he write his amend­ment, and it may be considered by unani­mous consent.
Mr. HARRIS. I would amend by in­serting after the word “ which” the follow­ing: “application and statement shall he filed away.”
Mir. JOHNSTON. Has it passed the stage of amendment?
The PRESIDENT. Yes; no amend­ment
can come in except by unanimous consent.
Mr. JOHNSTON. I object. I offered that amendment, and it was understood that the reasons for the action of the Governor were to be filed away for public inspection. It was not intended to have the whole rec­ord, which would reproduce the scandals of the neighborhood, open for public inspec­tion, subject to be overhauled by every curious scandal-monger wbo might come here for the purpose The amendment is in exactly the shape that I believe it ought to be in, and I believe it is in exactly the shape the Convention intended it to be, and I object to reopening the question.
Mr. HARRIS. I move to reconsider the vote by which it was adopted. I was going upon the idea that the mover of the amend­ment intended the application to he a mat­ter of public record. I know that was the argument made, and the object, as I think, was to restrain applicants from making ex­aggerated statements or misrepresentations to the Governor, and this, in some sense, would prevent it. I, therefore, move a re­consideration of the vote by which that section was adopted, with a view of moving this amendment: adding after the word “which” the words “application and state­ment.”
Mr. MAY. I second the motion.
Mr. JONSON. Under the rules, that motion must necessarily lie over.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair holds the report is not disposed of. That rule applies only to matters perfected and dis­posed of. The Chair holds that the consid­eration of this report is not yet ended, and therefore that rule does not apply.
Mr. BRONSTON. I call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. CARROBL. I second it.
The result of the roll-call is as follows: yeas—46.
Allen, C. T. , Kirwan, E . E.
Amos, D. C. Lewis, W. W.
Ayres, W. W. Mackoy, W. H.EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1521
Saturday,] Carroll—Blackburn—Harris. [November 22.
Bennett, B. F. Birkhead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Bronston, C. J. Buchanan, Nathan Bullitt, W. G. Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Cox, H.
Doris, W. F. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Eorgy, J. M. Goebel, William Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo 0. Jacobs, R. P. Jonson, Jep. C. Kennedy, Hanson
Martin, W. H.
May, John S, McElroy, W. J. Montgomery, J. F. Moore, Laban T. Nunn, T. J. * Pettit, Tlios. S. Phelps, Zack Pugh, Sam'l J. Quiclcsall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Rodes, Robert Smith, H. H. • Swango, G. B. . Trusdell, George Twyman, I. W. Washington, George West, J. P. Whitaker, Emery . Wood, J. M.
NATS—27.
Auxier, A. J. Beckner, W. M. Blackburn, James Brents, J. A. Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M. Buckner, S. B. Burnam, Curtis E. Clardy, John D. Coke, J. Guthrie DeHaven, S. E. . Edrington, W. J. Parmer H. H. Hanks, Thomas H.
Hines, J. S. Johnston, P. P. Lassing, L. W. McDermott, E. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, Will.
Miller, W. H.
Muir, J. W.
O’Hara, R. H. Phelps, John L. Sachs, Morris A. Smith, W. Scott Mr. Pi’esident Clay.
absent—27.
Allen, M. K. Applegate, Leslie Askew, J. P. Beckham, J. 0. Berkele, Wm. Boles, S. H. English, Sam. E. Field, W. W. . Forrester, J. G. Punk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Hendrick, W. J. Hines, Thomas H. Hogg, S. P.
Holloway, J. W.
'. Hopkins, P. A. James, A. D. Knott, J. Proctor McChord, Wm. C. Moore, J PI.
. Parsons, Rob’t T. Petrie, H. G. Spalding, I. A. Straus, P. P. Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. P. Young, Bennett H.
Mr. CARROLL. Is this section now open for amendment?
The PRESIDENT. No, sir, unless it is to the original text of the section as not amended by an amendment of the Commit­tee of the Whole.
Mr. CARROLL. I desire to offer an amendment.
The amendment was read, and is as fol­lows
Amend section 10 by inserting after the word “ power,” in the first line, the words “after judgment,” so it will then read: “ He shall have power after judgment to remit fines and forfeitures, commute sen­tences ” ■
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will de­cide that those amendments that were adopted by the Convention cannot be amended by any insertion, unless they are reconsidered; and the Secretary will report whether that amendment will apply to the original text of the report of the Commit­tee upon the Executive Department, or whether it is an amendment to an amend­ment hitherto adopted by the Convention.
The CLERK. It applies to the original text, as reported by the Committee.
The PRESIDENT. If that is the case, it is in order.
. Mr. BLACKBURN. Would not the amendment of the Delegate from Simpson . take precedence ? •
The PRESIDENT. If the amendment of the Delegate from Simpson is an amend­ment to an amendment adopted by this Convention, then the amendment is not in order. The vote by which that amendment was adopted has to be reconsidered; but if it is an amendment to the original text of the report of the Committee, it is now in. order.
Mr. HARRIS. It is an amendment to an amendment adopted by the Convention,, and in order to reach it .under the ruling of the Chair, I move to reconsider the vote by which that amendment was adopted.
The PRESIDENT. The Secretary will report the amendment to be reconsidered.
The READING CLERK. Insert after the word “impeachment,” in the third line, these words: “And he shall file with each application a statement of the reasons for his decision thereon, which shall always be open for public inspection.”3522 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] Harms—Beckner—Blackburn. [November 22.
The PRESIDENT. The question is on the reconsideration of the vote by which the amendment just read was adopted.
The motion being put, was carried.
Mr. HARRIS. I move that after the word “which,” in that amendment,the words “application and statement” shall he in­serted, so that it would read: “Which ap­plication and statement, shall always be open for public inspection
Mr. BECKNER. I'want to call the at­tention of the Chair to the fact that the amendment offered just now by the Dele­gate from Henry was voted upon in its exact terms when it was up before, and disposed of. Can it now be considered again? ■
The PRESIDENT. No, sir; it cannot.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I hope that amend­ment will not prevail. I think there are grave reasons why it should not he adopted. It occurs to me that the amendment as made to that section by the Convention covers every ground desirable on that ques­tion. It furnishes to every person who wants to know why the Governor did a certain thing, why he granted a pardon, remitted a fine, or refused the same. The amendment adopted by the Convention says that the Governor shall keep on file in his office a statement of the reasons why he did this. If the amendment of the Dele­gate from Simpson should he adopted, it requires the Governor to keep open for in­spection every petition, every remonstrance, every private letter that has influenced him in his action. Those private letters must be open, not to the inspection of one' who examines those matters and wants to inform himself for the public good, but to a gossip- monger, a mischief-maker, in his neighbor­hood, who believes that one of his citizens has signed a petition, and another has signed a remonstrance; who may believe that the Governor has received a private communication, a confidential communica­tion, from some citizen of the locality where the offense charged was committed; and he
goes there to delve among those records and find out, for what ? Eor the public good ? No, hut in order that he may make mischief at home among his neighbors. This may hap­pen. An application for Executive clemency goes to the Governor. He is in doubt as to the merit of the matter. He has a friend in that neighborhood whom he can trust. He knows that he will give him a fair, full statement of all the facts in the ease. He writes a letter to that friend, and receives an answer from him, suggesting that Exec­utive clemency should not he extended to that party. Do we propose to require the Executive of our State to keep that confi­dential letter—that letter written to him in order to enable him to discharge his duties fairly' and fully to the people of the Com­monwealth—open to public inspection ? I can see no good policy or good purpose to be accomplished by that. The amendment, as adopted by this Convention, provides that he shall keep on file the reasons for his official act, which may be a word spoken, a letter written, a petition filed, or remon­strance. How can we determine what it is that brings the Executive of this State to such determination as to authorize him and compel him to act under his oath in a given state of ease? It is hard for us to tell what motives actuate us under cer­tain conditions. So multifarious are the ’ circumstances surrounding us, that we sometimes take very important steps in life, and yet, if asked why we do it, it would he difficult for any one to tell exact­ly the impelling power—the motive that induced us to do it. I only suggest this: that the report, as adopted by the Conven­tion, I think is full and fair enough. Cer­tainly, we do not want to establish by this Constitution any' visitorial Court, or open up a door through which the inquisitive can enter and make mischief, contrary to public good.
Mr. HARRIS. I am one of those who do not much believe in secrecy in a Repub­lic. I believe that when the Governor actsEXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1523
Jonsok— MgElkoy—McHenry.—Carroll. November 22.
Saturday,]
upon an application for pardon, he ought to act upon the truth, and I say that the truth hurts nobody. If the truth alone is repre­sented to him in the application, then he has the truth before him, and his action can be in accordance with truth and with justice to all parties; and the very reason why I want these applications so that the public can inspect them is, that they may he made true. I do not want the G-overnor, in exer­cising Executive clemency, to act upon a misrepresentation of the truth, or an exag­geration of the truth. I want him to have the truth before him; and if these misrepre­sentations are to be left open for tbe peo­ple’s inspection, I say that the applicants will be very careful that they make no mis­representations. If they only make such representations as are true, that is all right; and if the Governor acts upon them, it is all right. That is the kind of ground I want him to have. I want him to act upon the truth alone ; and it is for the purpose of get­ting that truth before him that I want these matters published; and I do not think it is a good idea to allow him to act upon •mat­ters in a secret way of that kind, and then burn the whole record up, and say to the public: “ Here arc my reasons." t
Mr. JONSON. I fully concur with all that the Delegate from Simpson has said; and in answer further to the remarks made by the Delegate from Woodford, I would say that the act of the Governor in mak­ing these remissions is a public act, and that no sort of private influence can properly enter into his consideration as' to whether he ought to grant or withhold a pardon ; that no sort of private communication, with any propriety, he considered hv him, and is not considered by him; and it is no sense an innovation on privacy and confidence ex­isting between individuals that this informa­tion ought to he spread at large before the public; and whatever comes to him as a pri­vate communication from one citizen to him as another citizen, is not involved in this issue; and that it is necessary that he shall
not consider anything of that sort, and I say that he will not do it. I, therefore, am in favor of the amendment.
Mr. McELROY. I now move the pre­vious question.
Mr. McHENRY. I second it.
Mr. CARROLL. I rise to a parliament­ary inquiry. Can the amendment I offered awhile ago be voted upon ? .
The PRESIDENT. Has that amend­ment already been' proposed and voted down ?
Mr. CARROLL. It has.
The PRESIDENT. It can only come up by a reconsideration of the vote by which it was defeated.
Mr. CARROLL. I now make that motion.
' The PRESIDENT. That will he in order as soon as the present order for the previous question is disposed of. Does the gentleman withdraw his motion for the previous question ?
Mr. McELROY. I moved the previous question to put and end to the matter. _
Mr. CARROLL. I hope the Conven­tion will vote the previous question down. I call for the yeas and nays on the motion.
Mr. BRONSTON. I will second the call. The gentleman offered his amend­ment in good faith, and the reconsideration was ordered in order that all amendments that Delegates might desire should he offered. ’
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will give the status of the question. The Dele­gate from Allen moves the previous ques­tion. If the previous question is ordered,- the Delegate from Carroll cannot move a reconsideration of the vote by which the amendment he sent up was rejected. The Chair holds that that amendment, as an original amendment, is not in order, having once been voted down; and the only way the amendment can come’ up is by way of reconsideration. If the motion for the previous question prevails, that motion is cut off, and the Delegate will not have the1524 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] Miller—Carroll—McElroy. [N ovember 22'
privilege of bringing up his amendment.
Mr. W. H. MILLER. Is it in order to amend the motion for the previous ques­tion ? •
The PRESIDENT. No, sir.
Mr. CARROLL. I would like to know how far that previous question will reach?
The PRESIDENT. The Chair under­stood the gentleman to move the previous question on the section and amendment. It is in the discretion of the Delegate to make his motion apply to the section, or to any amendment.
Mr. MaELROY. My object is that the whole thing shall not be re-opened. I move the previous question upon the amendment of the Delegate from Simpson, and put an end to the matter. .
The PRESIDENT. The Chair does not understand the Delegate yet. Does he move the previous question upon the sec­tion and all amendments ? _
Mr. MoELEOT. Yes, sir.
The Clerk proceeded to call the roll, which resulted as follows: yeas—2'8.
Allen, C. T.
Amos, D. C. Auxi'er, A. J. Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. O. Beckner, W. M. Blackburn, James Brents, J. A. _ Buckner, S. B. ' Burnam, Curtis E. Clardy, John D. DeHaven, S. E. Doris, W. E. Edrington, W. J.
Hines, J. S. Jacobs, R. P. Johnston, P. P. Lassing, L. W. Lewis, W. W. McDermott, E. J. McElroy, W. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, W. II. Muir, J. W. Nunn, T. J. Rodes, Robert Whitaker, Emery Wood, J. M.
NAYS—42.
Bennett, B.E. Birkhead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Bronston, 0. J. Brammal, J. M. Buchanan, Nathan Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Coke, J. Guthrie
Kennedy, Hanson Kirwan, E. E. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. May, John S. Miller, Will- Montgomery, J. E. Moore, Lahan T. Pettit, Thos. S. Phelps, Zack
Cox, H. ' Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Parmer. H. H. Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M. Goebel, William Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. C. Hines, Thomas H. Jonson, Jep. C.
Pugh, Sam’l J. Quioksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Smith, II H.
Smith, W. Scott Swango, G. B. Trusdell, George Twyman, I. W. Washington, George- West, J. E.
Mr. President Clay.
absent—30.
Allen, M. K. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. F. Berkele, Wm.
Boles, S. H.
Brown, J. S.
Bullitt, W. G. English, Sam. E. Forrester, J. G. Funk, J; T.
Glenn Dudley A. Hanks, Thos H. Hendrick, W. J. Hogg, S. P. Holloway, J. W.
Hopkins, F. A. James, A. D. Knott, J Proctor MoChord, Wm. C. Moore, J H. O’Hara, R. H. Parsons, Rob’t T. Petrie, H. G. Phelps, John L. Sachs, Morris A. Spalding, I. A. Straus, F. P. Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. F. Young, Bennett H.
So the motion for the previous question was lost.
Mr. CARROLL. I desire to move to reconsider the vote by which the. Conven­tion refused to adopt the amendment to in­sert the words “ after judgment ” in section 10.
The PRESIDENT. Your motion will be considered after the amendment of the Delegate from Simpson is disposed of.
A vote being taken on the amendment of Mr. Harris, it was adopted.
' Mr. HARRIS. I offer another amend­ment to the same.
It was read, and is as follows:
Amendthe amendment by adding thereto, after the word ‘Inspection,” the following : “And a copy of said application and state­ment shall be filed for public inspection in the Circuit Clerk’s office of the county wherein the offense was committed.”
A vote being taken on the amendment and a division of the'vote being called for,i1 resulted 32 in the affirmative and 34 in ths negative; so the amendment was rejectedEXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1525
Saturday,] Carroll—Bronston—McHenry [November 22.
The PRESIDENT. The question is on the adoption of the amendment as amended.
A vote being taken on the same, it was adopted.
The PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion' of the Delegate from Henry to reconsider the vote by whichhis amendment to said section was defeated. »
' Mr. BLACKBURN. Was not there a yea and nay vote on the adoption of the amendment now spoken of when it was up before ?
Mr. CARROLL. I know personally there was not, and it was suggested by one or two Delegates if there had been a yea .and nay vote it would have carried.
The PRESIDENT. The Secretary will inform the Chair if there was a yea and nay Calyon the amendment. If there was not, the Delegate will have leave to make his motion.
Mr. BRONSTON. 1 might possibly as­sist the Secretary by making this suggestion: This amendment was offered by the Dele­gate from Henry to the Committee’s report to insert the words “ after judgment.” On that there was no roll-call. The vote re­ferred to by the Delegate from Woodford, where there was a roll-call, was on an amend­ment offered to strike out the words “after judgment, after conviction,” in the substi­tute offered by myself. On that there was a roll-call, and it was voted in the negative.
The PRESIDENT. The recollection of the Secretary is, as he has not the Journal of that date here, that there was no roll- call, and the Chair will so decide, and the Delegate has the right to make the motion
The section, as it would read with the proposed amendment, was read, and is as follows:
He shall have power, after judgment, to remit fines and forfeitures, to commute sen­tences, to grant reprieves and pardons, ex­cept in cases of impeachment; and he shall file with each application a statement of the reasons for his decision thereon, which state­ment and application shall always be open for public inspection. In cases of treason ihe shall have power to grant reprieves until
the end of the next session of the General Assembly, in which the power of pardon­ing shall he vested; but lie shall have no power to remit the fees of the Clerk, Sheriff, or Commonwealth’s Attorney, in penal or criminal cases.
Mr. McHENRY. This question has been debated more than any other before the Convention, and one or two votes taken upon it. I do not want to waste any more time upon it; for I presume every gentle­man in the Convention has made up his mind whether the Governor shall have the power to grant pardons before or after con­viction. I therefore move the previous question.
, Mr. CARROLL. I second the motion.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I move to lay the motion to reconsider on the table, and on that I call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. BRONSTON. I rise to a point of order: that the motion of the Delegate from "Woodford is out'of order; that the motion to reconsider has already been car­ried.
The PRESIDENT. The Delegate from Ohio has moved the previous question, and the Delegate from Woodford has moved to lay the motion to reconsider on the table.
Mr. BLACKBURN. On that I call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. McHENRY. I will withdraw my motion. ■
Mr. BRONSTON. I will call for the yeas and nays on the proposition of the Delegate from Henry.
The PRESIDENT. It is moved by the Delegate from Woodford to lay the motion to reconsider the vote by which the amendment of the Delegate from Henry was defeated, on the table. •
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point of order that the motion to reconsider has carried.
The PRESIDENT. It has not carried, and the Secretary will report the matter and see if the Chair is not correct.
Mr. BRONSTON. I so understood that it carried a moment ago. After the Dele-1526 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Saturday,] McHenry—DeHavex—Bkonstox. [November 22.
gate from Allen made liis motion for the previous question there was a roll-call. The Delegate from Henry made a motion to reconsider the vote by which the words “after judgment” had been voted down, and that was put by the Chair and carried, by a vote of 20 something on one side, and 88 on the other. .
Mr. McHENRY. How could he offer an amendment unless it was reconsidered ?
The PRESIDENT. The vote by which the amendment of the Delegate from Henry was defeated was not reconsidered ; but the Secretary will report the matter.
The SECRETARY”. The amendment to section 10, as amended by Mr. Harris, was adopted. The next minute I have is the motion by Mr. Carroll to reconsider the vote rejecting his amendment, which carried, and then Mr. McHenry moved the previous question upon the adoption of the amend­ment.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair stands corrected. The yeas and nays are de­manded on the adoption of the amendment of the Delegate from Henry.
Mr. DeIIAVEN. I sincerely hope that that amendment will not be adopted.
Mr. BRONSTON. I would like to make a suggestion, that we consented to a with­drawal of the motion for the previous question on the understanding- that there was to be no debate.
Mr. DeHAYEN. Has .the previous question been ordered ?
The PRESIDENT. No, sir.
Mr. DeHAYEN. As has been suggested by the Delegate from Ohio, if there is any one question upon which we have had the most thorough discussion, it has been upon this section. We have discussed it world without end in Committee of the Whole, and we have discussed it in this House; and if we are ever to have a determination of our labors, it does occur to me that it is about time we are settling upon something: and I sincerely hope that the amendment
of the gentleman from Henry will not pre­vail. Let us have an end of this thing.
Mr. BLACKBURN, having arisen, and about to address the-Chair—
Mr. BRONSTON. I move the previous question.
Mr. CARROLL. I second- it.
- Mr. BLACKBURN. I was on the flo'or before the gentleman rose------
The PRESIDENT. The Chair recog­nises the Delegate from Lexington.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I rise for the pur­pose of making an inquiry.
Mr. BRONSTON. I object to any de­bate.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I am accustomed to the objections of my friend from Lexing­ton, so they do not disturb me.
Mr. BRONSTON. So am I accustomed to the ingenious ways of the Delegate from Woodford.
Mr. BLACKBURN. That section 10' was adopted by tbe Convention.
Mr. BRONSTON. ' I object
Mr. BLACKBURN. I am asking for information. I want to know if a simple majority can amend that section after it has been already adopted; or whether, under our rule, it does not require more than that to reverse the action of the Convention ?
Mr. BRONSTON. I object.
The PRESIDENT. A simple majority can amend it.
Mr. BLACKBURN. I move that this Convention do now adjourn. On that I call for the yeas and nays.
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point of order on that: on the motion for the pre­vious question that motion is not in order.
The PRESIDENT. The gentleman is overruled. It is in order.
The Clerk proceeded to call the roll, which resulted as follows: yeas—42.
Allen, C. T. Auxier, A. J. Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. ’ Beekner, W. M.
Jacobs, R. P. Johnston, P. P. Kennedy, Hanson •Lassing, L. W. Lewis, W. W.APPROVAL OF THE JOURNAL. 1527
Monday,]
Bronston—McHenry.
[November 24.
Blackburn, James Brents, J. A. Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M. Buckner, S. B. Bullitt, W. G. Burnam, Curtis F. Olardy, John D, DeHaven, S. E. Edrington, ~W. J. English, Sam E. Farmer, H. H. Goebel, William Hanks, Thos. H. Hines, J. S. .
Hines, Thomas H.
Maekoy, W. H. McDermott, E. J. McElroy, W. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, W H. Montgomery, J. F. Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
Phelps, John L. Pugh, Sam’l J. » Rodes, Robert ' Sachs, Morris A. Swaugo, G. B. Washington, George WhitakcT, Emery Wood, J. M.
NAYS—35.
Amos, D. C. Bennett, B. E. Birkhead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Bronston, 0. J. Buchanan, Nathan Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Coke, J. Guthrie Cox, H.
Doris, W. E. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J.
Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M. Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. C.
Holloway, J. W. Jonson, Jep. C. Kirwan, E. E. Martin, W. H.
May, John S.
Miller, Will.
Moore, Laban'T Pettit, Thos. S. Phelps, Zack Quicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Smith, H H Smith, W. Scott Trusdell, George Twyman, I. W. West, J. F.
Mr. President Clay
absent—23.
Allen, M. K. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. F Berkele Wm.
Boles, S. H. Forrester, J. G. Funk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Hendrick, W. J. Hogg, S. P. Hopkins, F. A.
Knott, J Proctor McCliord, Win. C. Moore, J H O’Hara, R H. Parsons, Robt. T. Petrie, B. G. Spalding, I. A Straus, F P Williams, L. P. V. Woolfolk, J. F. Young, Bennett H.
James, A. D.
Mr. BRONSTON. I - make the point that it requires a two-thirds vote to change
a rule of the House.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair decides
the point is not well taken. The House can adjourn at any time, if it is a simple adjournment. The Convention stands ad­journed until half-past 10 o’clock on t on- day morning.
Monday, November 24, 1890.
The Convention was called to order by the President, and the proceedings were opened with prayer by the Rev. Mr. Ne­ville.
The Journal of Saturday’s proceedings was read.
Mr. McHENRY. I want to make a motion to have the Journal corrected. The Journal shows that the motion made by the Delegate from Henry to reconsider the vote by which his amendment was rejected was carried, and that that vote was reconsid­ered. There was a question raised at the time by the Delegate from Lexington, and the Chair decided, according to the recol-» lection of the Chair, that the vote rejecting the amendment of the Delegate from Henry wTas .not reconsidered, and that was submitted to the Clerk, and the Clerk, in his minute at the time, had it that the vote was taken and the vote was reconsidered. At that time 1 agreed that that was cor­rect, hut upon reflection and an examina­tion of the minutes of the Stenographer, I find that it was not reconsidered, and that the consideration of the question now is upon the motion of the Delegate from Henry, as to whether the vote rejecting his amendment shall he reconsidered, and I move to correct the Journal in that regard.
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point that that was decided by the Chair at the time.
The PRESIDENT. Still it is in the pleasure of the Convention to correct a de­cision of the Chair. .
Mr. BRONSTON. It has been taken up and voted upon. ,
The PRESIDENT. Yes.
, M r. BRONSTON. Upon that I call the yeas and nays. I believe the question is whether the Journal shall he corrected. Did not the Clerk’s records show that the motion was reconsidered ?
Mr. MoHBNRY. My motion is to cor­rect the Journal on that point.
The roll-call was then proceeded with.1528 APPROVAL OF THE JOURNAL.
Monday,] Bronston—Beckham—McHenry,—Coke. [November 24.
Mr. APPLEGATE (during the roll- call). I ask to he' excused from voting, as I was not here, and do not know any thing about it.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, the Delegate will be excused from voting on the question.
Mr. ASKEW (answering to his name in the roll-call). Aye.
Mr. BRONSTON. I object to the gen­tleman casting his vote. He was not here.
Mr. ASKEW. I can get my informa­tion from anywhere I want to.
The PRESIDENT. That is a matter within the discretion of the Delegate.
*. Mr. BECKHAM. I understand that the Stenographer’s report shows it was not cor­rect.
Mr. BRONSTON. I do not so under­stand. ■ ’
The PRESIDENT. The Delegate from Shelby can only explain his vote hy unani­mous consent. The Chair will hold that debate is not in order.
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point that the Clerk is the only officer who keeps the official record of the vote of this Con­vention.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair holds that the Delegate from Shelby is out of order, unless he rises to make a parliament­ary inquiry.
Mr. BRONSTON. Do I understand that the roll-call has been begun?
The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir; and it has proceeded as far as the name of the Dele­gate from Shelby.
Mr. BECKHAM. May I ask what the fact is as shown hy the notes of the Official Stenographer of this Convention?
Mr. BRONSTON. I object.
Mr. MoHENRY. I will state that the notes of the Stenographer show that it was not carried.
The result of the roll-call was announced as follows: •
yeas—31.
Allen, C. T. McDermott, E. J.
Askew, J. E. . McElroy, W .1. ■
Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. Beckner, W. M. Blackburn, James Brummal, J. M. Buckner, S. B. DeHaven, S. E. Edrington, W. J. Punk, .J. T. .
J a cobs, R. P. Jonson, Jep. C. Johnston, P. P. Lewis, W. W. MeOhord, Wm. 0.
McHenry, H. D. Miller, W. H. Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J. Phelps, John L. Pugh, Sam! J. Rodes. Robert Smith, H. H. Straus, E. P. Swango, G. B. Whitaker, Emery Wood, J. M. Mr.President Olay
nays—34.
Amos, D. C. Bennett, B. E. Birkhead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Bronston, C. J. Buchanan, Nathan Burnam, Curtis P. Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Coke, J. Guthrie Cox, H Doris, W. E. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M.
Graham, Samuel ’ Harris, Geo. C. . Hines, Thomas H. Kirwan, E. E.
May, John S.
Miller, Will.
Moore, Laban T. Parsons, Rob’t T. Pettit, Thos. S. Quicksall, J E. Ramsey, W. R. Sachs, Morris A. Smith, W. Scott Twyman, I. W. Washington, George West, J. E. ■ Woolfolk, J. F.
ABSENT—28.
Allen, M. K. Auxier, A. J. Berkele, Wm. Boles, S. H. Brents, J. A. Brown, J. S. Bullitt, W. G. Clardy, John D. English, Sam. E. Eorrester, J. G. Glenn, Dudley A. Goebel, Wm. Hanks, Thos. H. Hendrick, W. J. '
HineS, J. S.
Hogg, S. P. Holloway, J. W. Hopkins, E. A. James, A. D. Knott, J. Proctor Lassing, L. W. Mackoy, W. H„ Martin, W. H. Montgomery, J. E. O’Hara, R. H. Petrie, H. G. Phelps, Zack Tmsdell, George
excused—7.
Applegate, Leslie T. Spalding, I. A. Earmer, H. H. Williams, L. P. Y. Kennedy, Hanson Young, Bennett H. Moore, J. H.
M r. McHBNRY. I move that we have a call of the roll. The object of my mo­tion is that this is an important vote we have just been taking, and it ought not tc he considered hy a thin House. A motionRESOLUTIONS. 1529
Monday,] Bronston—M cHenry—-Coke. [November 24.
for a call of the roll is always in order, I believe ? ■
The PRESIDENT, Yes.
Mr. BRONSTON. That vote ' has been .announced by the Chair.
The PRESIDENT. Certainly.
Mr. BRONSTON. I make the point------
what did I understand the Delegate to ask for ? '
Mr. MoHENRY. I move to call the roll, to see how many members are pres- •ent.
Mr. COKE. I rise to a point of order: that the vote has been taken, and no call of the House can be had until the vote is an­nounced.
The PRESIDENT. It has been an­nounced.
Mr. COKE. Then a call of the House ■cannot affect this question.
The PRESIDENT. No, sir.
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried.
Leaves of Absence.
Leaves of absence were granted to the Delegates from. Todd, Boone, McCracken, Wayne, Pirst District city of Louisville, Jefferson, Harrison, Owsley, Harlan, Gar­rard, Wayne and Clinton.
The result of the roll-call was as fol­lows
:
yeas—82.
Allen, C. T.
Allen, M. K.
Amos, D. C. Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. E.
Auxier, A. J.
Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. 0. Beckner, W. M. Bennett, B. P. Birkhead, B. T. Blackburn, James Blackwell, Joseph Bourland, H. R. Brents, J. A. Bronston, C. J. Brown, J. S. ’
Brummal, J. M. Buchanan, Nathan Buckner, S. B. ■Burnam, Curtis E.
98 ■
James, A. D. Jonson, Jep. 0. Johnston, P. P. Kennedy, Hanson Kirwan, E. E. Knott, J. Proctor Lewis, W. W. May, John S. McChord, Wm. C. McDermott, E. J. McElroy, W. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, Will. Miller, W. H. Montgomery, J. E. Moore, J. H. Moore, Laban T. Muir, J W.
Nunn, T. J. Parsons, Robert T. Pettit, Thos S.
Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Coke, J. Gutlirie Cox, H.
DeHaven, S. E. Doris; W. E. Durbin, Charles Edrington, W. J. Elmore, T. J. Parmer, H. H. Pield, W. W. Porgy, J. M. Punk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. C. Hines, Thomas H. Holloway, J. W. Hopkins, P. A. Jacobs, R. P.
Phelps, John L. Pugh, Sam’l J. Quicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Rodes, Robert Sachs, Morris A. Smith, H. H.
Smith, W, Scott Spalding, I. A. Straus, P. P. ' Swango, G. B. Trusclell, George Twyman, I. W. West, J. P. Whitaker, Emery Williams, L. P. Y. Wood,~J. M. Woolfolk, J. P. Young, Bennett H. Mr. President Clay.
absent—18.
Berkele, Wm. Boles, S. H.
Bullitt, W. G. Clardy, John D, English, Sam. E. Porrester, J. G. Goebel, William Hanks, Thomas H. Hendrick, W. J.
Hines, J. S.
Hogg, S. P.
Lassmg, L. W. Maekoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. O’Hara, R. H.
Petrie, H. G.
Phelps, Zack Washington, George The question is on
The' PRESIDENT.
the approving of the Journal. If there is no objection, the Journal will be consider­ed as approved.
A DELEGATE. I object.
The PRESIDENT. The vote will then
be taken.
The vote being taken, the Journal was approved.
The PRESIDENT. Petitions are now in order. Reports from Standing Commit­tees are in order. Reports from Special Committees are in order. Motions and res­olutions.
Resolutions.
Mr. McHENRY. I offer the following resolution. I do not care to consider it now; it is in regard to the adjournment for Thanksgiving; hut as we have a full House, I think we had just as well con­sider it now.
The resolution was read, and is as follows:
■Resolved, That when the Convention ad­journs at its morning session on Wednes_1530 RESOLUTIONS.
Monday,] Miller—Farmer—MoHenry. [November 24..
day, the 26th. inst, it will adjourn to meet at 10:30 o’clock A. M. on Friday, the 28th inst.
Mr. W. H; MILLER. T. have a substi­tute for that. -
The substitute was l'ead, and is as fol­lows :
Resolved, That when the Convention shall adjourn on Wednesday, the 26th, that it adjourn to meet again on Monday, De­cember 1st, 1890, at the regular hour.
Mr FARMER. I have a resolution I want to send up as an amendment.
TheRRESIDENT. Upon consideration of the matter, the Chair will hold that the original resolution providing for an adjourn­ment suspends or changes the rule, and will require a two-thirds vote to take it up, or else it will have to lie over one day.
Mr. McHENRY.. I thought probably it would be the pleasure of the House to take it up and consider it now; but I do not want to be placed in the attitude of taking a two-thirds vote to carry my resolution when the substitute of the Delegate from Henderson only requires a majority.
The PRESIDENT. It only takes two- thirds to take it up, and then a majority can carry it.
Mr. McHENRY. I move to suspend the rules and take it up, and determine it this morning.
Mr. BRONSTON. On that I call the yeas and nays.
Mr. McHENRY. I will withdraw the motion.
Mr. FAR MER. Will you have my sub­stitute read V
.The PRESIDENT. Certainly.
The substitute offered by the Delegate froth Henderson, as an additional section to report of Committee on Executive Offi­cers for State at Large was read, and is .as follows:
In case of rebellion, or armed resistance to the law, of large bodies of men, be may, by proclamation, declare that he will par­don all who will in a specified time surren­der to the civil authorities, and may par­don such persons before trial.
Mr. PETTIT. I offer a resolution that I desire to he considered at this time.
The resolution reads as follows:
Whereas, It has been alleged by a distinguished Delegate in this Convention,, that the laws of Kentucky have been and are being practically nullified, causing the State Treasury to be defrauded of- a sum of money almost equal to one half million dol­lars; and that defects and conflicts be­tween officials in the execution of the laws, with attendant losses to the people, have been admitted by another distinguished Delegate on this floor. Now, to remedy this great evil and simplify the duties of other Delegates in this Convention in de­vising the best means possible to remedy such gross irregularities,
■ Resolved, That a select Committee of three Delegates, composed of the Delegate from Hart (Mr. Buckner), the Delegate- from Lexington (Mr. Bronston), and the Delegate from Louisville (Mr. McDer­mott), be selected by this Convention to examine all the facts connected therewith,, and submit such suggestions as will, in their judgment, secure the faithful execu­tion of the laws, and the prevention of such losses to the Treasury of this State; and that this Committee he requested to report to this Convention at as early a day as ■ practicable.
Mr. BRONSTON. I desire to offer an amendment to that resolution.
Mr. W. H. MILLER- I have a commu­nication from the County Clerk of Lincoln which I desire to have referred to the- Special Committee, of which the Delegate from Anderson is Chairman.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection,, it will be so referred.
Mr. McDERMOTT. I would like to ask the Delegate, with the consent of the Convention, to strike my name from the- resolution.
The PRESIDENT. The Convention has not inserted your name. That is a matter of private arrangement between the- Delegate and the Delegate offering it.
Mr. PETTIT. I have heard the request, rpade by th'e Delegate from Louisville, but I think he is one of the men who ought to be on this Committee, and I would rather submit that to the Convention.EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1581
Monday,] Applegate—McHenry—Pettit. [November 24.
The amendment offered by the Delegate from Lexington, Mr. Bronston, was read, as follows:
That the Committee will also inquire in­to the operation of the Auditor’s Agents’ collection of revenue by his Agents and the Trustees of the Jury Fund; and also as to the number of pardons, respites and remis­sions granted before and after conviction, and make a full report thereon.
Mr. APPLEGATE. I move to refer this resolution to the Committee on Rules.
Mr. M cHENRY. I do not think that is an appropriate Committee for any thing of this sort. I do not think this Convention lnts a right to be investigating the capacity of anybody or any thing for this Conven­tion to know how to vote or make a Consti­tution. I do not think this is a subject on which this Convention ought to spend any time whatever, and I, therefore, move to lay the whole matter on the table.
Mr. PETTIT. I must call the yeas and nays on that proposition.
Mr. DURBIN. I second it.
Mr. BRONSTON. Is a statement in order ? '
The PRESIDENT. Debate is out of order.
Mr. BRONSTON. I do not propose to debate it. ■
Th,e PRESIDENT. Any debate is out of order. A statement is debate.
Mr. BRONSTON. I certainly desi^ to explain the purpose I had in offering the amendment. I agree with the Delegate from Ohio that it ought to be laid on the table—
The PRESIDENT. The Chair rules the Delegate has no right to debate the ques­tion. _ ■ ■ ■
Mr. PETTIT. I call for the reading of the original resolution.
The PRESIDENT. Without objection, it can be read. "
A DELEGATE I object.
On the motion tc lay on the table, the roll-call resulted as follows:
yeas—57.
Allen, C. T.
Allen, M. K. A.mos, D. C. Applegate, Leslie Askew, J. E. Auxier, A. J. Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. C. Beckner, W. M. Bennett, B. F.. Blackburn, James Blackwell, Joseph Bronston, C. J. Buchanan, Nathan Burnam, Curtis F. Carroll, John D. Cox, H.
DeHaven, S. E. Edrington, W. J. Funk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Graham, Samuel Harris, Geo. C. Hendrick, W. J. Hines, Thomas H. Holloway, J. W. Hopkins, F. A. Jacobs, E. P. Jonson, Jep. C.
Johnston, P. P. Kennedy, Hanson Kirwan, E. E. -Knott, J. Proctor McChord, Wm. C. McDermott, E. J. McElroy, W. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, W. H.' Montgomery, J. F. Moore, J. H. Moore, Laban T. Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
Phelps, John L. Rodes, Robert Sachs, Morris A. Smith, H. H. Smith, W. Scott Spalding, I. A. Straus, F. P. Swango, G. B. Triisdell, George West, J. F. Williams, L. P. Y. Woolfolk, J. P. Young, Bennett H. Mr. President Clay.
NAYS—24.
Birkhead, B. T. Bourland, H. R. Brown, J. S. Brummal, J. M. Chambers, G. D. Cuke, J. Guthrie Doris; W. F. Durbin, Charles Elmore, T. J. Farmer, H. H. Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M.
James, A. D. Lewis, W. W. May, John S. Miller, Will. Parsons, Rob’t T. Pettit, Thos. S. Pugh, Sam’l J. Quicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Twymanfl. W. Whitaker, Emery Wood, J. M.
ABSENT—19.
Berkele, Wm. Boles, S. H. Brents, J. A. Buckner, S. B. Bullitt, W. G. Clardy, John D. English, Sam. E. Forrester, J. G.
. Goebel, William Hanks, Thos. II.
Hines, J. S.
Hogg, S. P.
Lassing, L. W. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. O’Hara, R. H. Petrie, II. G.
Phelps, Zack Washington, George
So the resolution and amendment were laid on the table.
Mr. MONTGOMERY. I move that the Convention take up for consideration the1532 EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
Monday,] McElroy—Funk—Carroll. [November 24.
report of tbe Joint Committee on Executive Department. . '
A vote being taken, the motion was car­ried. • •
Executive. Department.
Tbe PRESIDENT. The Secretary will report the pending motion in reference to the matter under consideration.
The SECRETARY. Upon adjourning Saturday afternoon the Convention was considering section 10. The question is on the adoption of the amendment of the Del­egate from Henry to said section, which reads: “Amend seotion 10 by inserting after the word “power,” in the first line, the words “ after judgment.”
Mr. McELROY. I move to lay that motion on the table.
The PRESIDENT. The Secretary will please report the motions which are pend­ing before the Chair takes action on the motion of the Delegate from Allen.
The SECRETARY. Mr. Bronston moved the previous question, and before that was put Mr Blackburn moved an ad­journment, which was carried.
Mr. FUNK. I would like to ask infor­mation of the Chair whether the carrying of a motion to table does not carry with it the defeat of that seotion ?
The PRESIDENT. It has always been held that a motion to table an amendment carries with it the hill, and the main resolu­tion and amendment go together.
Mr. McELROY. I will withdraw the motion, and move the previous question.
The PRESIDENT. The previous ques­tion has already been moved by the Dele­gate from Lexington, and seconded.
The motion being put, was carried, and the main question ordered.
The PRESIDENT.- The question now is upon the adoption of the amendment of the Delegate from Henry, which the Secre­tary will again report.
The amendment was again read.
Mr. CARROLL. I demand the yeas and nays on that.
Mr. STRAUS. I second the call.
' Mr. BLACKBURN. Is not an amend­ment offered by the Delegate from Hender­son in order ?
The PRESIDENT. The previous ques­tion was moved last Saturday, and durixrg the pendency of that motion, and until it was determined, no further amendments were in order; and unless the Delegate got unanimous consent to offer his amendment, the Chair will hold that the amendment is not in order, and the Secretary will note the Journal to see whether unanimous con­sent was given this morning. ■
Mr. BLACKBURN.. I do not know whether that consent was asked.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will ask whether there is any objection now ?
Mr. CARROLL. 1 object.
The PRESIDENT. There is objection, and it is out of order.
During the roll-call— .
Mr. ELMORE. I have paired with the gentleman from McCracken on this propo­sition.
The roll-call resulted as follows:
yeas—80. '
Hendrick, W. J. James, A. D.-
Amos, D. C. Bennett, B. F. Birkhead, B. T. Blackwell, Joseph Bonrland, H. R. Buchanan, Nathan Carroll, John D. Chambers, G. D. Coke, J. Guthrie Cox, H.
Doris, W. F. Durbin, Charles Field, W. W. Forgy, J. M. Graham, Samuel
Kirwan, E. E.
May, John S.
Miller, Will.
Moore, Laban T. Parsons, Robert T. Pettit, Thomas S. Quicksall, J. E. Ramsey, W. R. Trusdell, George Twyman, I. W. Washington, George West, J. F.
Young, Bennett II.
nays—52.
Allen, C.T.
Allen, M. K Applegate, Leslie T. Askew, J. F. Auxier, A. J. , Ayres, W. W. Beckham, J. 0. Beckner, W. M. Blackburn, James Bronston, C. J.
Kennedy, Hanson Knott, J. Proctor Lewis, W. W. McOhord, Wm. C. McDermott, E. J. McEIroy, W. J. McHenry, H. D. Miller, V. H. Montgomery, J. F. Moore, J. H.EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT. 1533
Monday,] Applegate—McHenry—Burnam—Blackburn. [November 24.
Brown, J.S. Brummal, J. M. Buckner, S. B. Burnam, Curtis F. DeHaven, S. E. Bdrington, W. J. Parmer, H. H. Punk, J. T.
Glenn, Dudley A. Hanks, Thomas H. Harris,’Geo. C. Hines, Thomas H. Hopkins, P. A. Jacobs, B. P. Jonson, Jep. C. Johnston, P. P.
Muir, J. W.
Nunn, T. J.
Phelps, John L.. Pugh, Sami J.
Bodes, Bobert Sachs, Morris A. Smith, H. H.
Smith, W. Scott Spalding, I. A. Straus, P. P.
Swango, G. B. Whitaker, Emery Williams, L. P. V. Wood, J. M Woolfolk, J. P.
Mr. President Clay.
ABSENT—18.
Berlcele, Wm. Boles, S. H. Brents, J. A. Bullitt, W. G. Clardy, John D. Elmore, T. J. English, Sam. E. Porrester, J. G. Goebel, William
Hines. J. S. Hogg, S. P. Holloway, J. W. Passing, L. W. Mackoy, W. H. Martin, W. H. O’Hara, It. H. Petrie, H. G. Phelps, Zack
Before the result was announced by the Chair— .
Mr. APPLEGATE. I do not under­stand the previous' question was moved on the adoption of the report of the Commit­tee. If it was not, I want to move the previous question on that.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair so stated. The previous question was moved on the adoption of the section as amended. The . question now recurs on the adoption of the section as amended.
A vote being taken, the same was adopted. '
Mr. McHENRY. I move to reconsider the vote by which that section was adopted, and I move to table that motion.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will hold that this second motion is out of order. The first reconsideration disposes of the matter. The vote by which it was adopted has been once reconsidered, and parliament­ary usage does not allow a'second reconsid­eration.
Mr. McHENRY. That suits me better than tbe other.
Mr. BURNAM. There was a second re­port made on the eighteenth day of Octo­ber, 1890, by the Joint Committee on the Executive Department, having reference to minor offices. The Committee of the House who had charge of that branch of the matter was presided over by the Dele­gate from the First District of Louisville (Mr. Zack Phelps). 1 see he is not here. I presume that he would desire to be pres­ent, and I am willing to let it lie over if it is the pleasure of the House to do so. If not, it will be in order.
The PRESIDENT. The Chair will state that the Delegate from the First Louisville District, who was Chairman of the Committee indicated, requested m e to make the request of the Convention that they would not consider that matter until he came back. He said he would be back by Wednesday, and suggested that the Convention in the meantime take up some other report. The Chair'will also suggest, as each one of the reports- has been adopted, the Convention has ordered it printed for the information and convenience of the Delegates. ' . •
Mr. BLACKBURN. I move that this report he printed and recommitted to the Committee, in order that the work of the Convention may he made harmonious and consistent. There may he conflicts between this report as adopted and the report of some other Committees when adopted. Those conflicts should be remedied, and I move that this report as adopted he printed and recommitted to the Committee on Executive Officers for the State at Large.
Mr ASKEW. I object.
Mr. BLACKBURN. There is objec­tion, and I ask leave to withdraw my motion.
Mr. YOUNG. There is a report which has been printed and been on the tables of members for some time from the Committee on Revision. It seems to me that it is very important that as early as possible in the session of the Convention this question1534 EE VISION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
Monday,]
Ramsey—Y oung—Knott.
should bo disposed of. The method ot revision, of the Constitution, which we shall send down to the people, will affect the views of the members upon many ques­tions, and if there is nothing else before the Convention, I move that we now go into Committee of the Whole, and consider the report of the Committee on Revision.
Mr. RAMSEY. I would like for the gentleman to withdraw his motion for a moment, as 1 have .an additional section which I submitted to the Chairman of the Joint. Committee on Executive Depart­ment. I do not think there will he any ob­jection to it. .
Mr. YOUNG. I will withdraw the mo­tion temporarily. '
• The PRESIDENT. The resolution will be read for information. .
The Reading Clerk read the same, as fo lows:
There shall lie a seal ot the State, which shall be kept by the Governor, and used by him officially, as directed by law, and shall be called “the Great Seal of the State of Kentucky.'’
The PRESIDENT. Is there objection to the consideration of the section'? The Chair hears none, and the amendment is now before the Convention. ,
Mr. KNOTT. Had not that better be referred to the t ommittee on Miscellaneous Provisions, in order that the device may be determined and the matter all perfected in the same Committee ?
Mr. RAMSEY. I notice that such pro­vision usually comes in under the head of Executive Department in various Consti­tutions, as it states the seal shall be kept by the Governor. It goes in connection with the other duties prescribed for the Governor.
Air. KNOTT. I move to refer it to the Committee on Executive Department, in order to report a device.
The motion, being put, was carried.
Mr. YOUNG. 1 renew my motion.
Revision of the Constitution.
The motion being put, was carried; and
[November 24.
the President designated the Delegate from Shelby as Chairman of the '
COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE.
The CHAIRMAN The Committee of the Whole has under consideration the re­port of the Committee on Revision. The Secretary will read the report:
Sec. 1. Amendments to this Constitu­tion may be proposed in either House of the General Assembly, and if such amendment shall be agreed to by two- thirds of all the members elected to each House, such proposed amendment, with the yeas and nays of each House taken thereon, shall he entered in full on their respective Journals, and if the same shall he agreed to by a majority' of all the members elected to each House of the next ensuing General Assembly, by a vote there­on, to be taken by yeas and nays, and spread upon tbe Journals of each House, then such proposed amendment shall he submitted to the electors of the State, for their ratification or rejection, at the next general election for State officers or mem­bers of the House of Representatives, which shall not occur less than ninety days from the final passage of such proposed amendment, the vote to be taken thereon in such manner as the General Assembly may provide, and to be certified by the offi­cers of election to the Secretary of State, in such, manner as shall he provided by law, which vote shall he compared and certified by the same board authorized by law to compare tbe polls and give certificate of elec­tion to officers for the State at large. If it shall appear that a majority of all the votes cast for and against such amendment was for the amendment, then the same shall be­came a part of the Constitution of this State, and shall be so proclaimed by the Governor and published in such manner as the General Assembly may direct. A proposition to amend may be either-to add to or to take from this Constitution: Pro­vided, That but one amendment to any'REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION. 1535
Monday,]
.•article of this Constitution shall be voted upon or be pending at any one time.
Sec. 2. Before any amendment .shall he . submitted to a vote, the, Secretary of State shall cause such proposed amendment, and the time that the same is to he voted upon, to be published at least ninety days before the vote is to be taken thereon, by a weekly insertion of the same in two local newspa­pers in each county in which two papers are published, and in counties where but one paper is published,by like insertions in same, and by such other mode as may be pre­scribed by law.
Seo. 3. ' When a majority of all the members elected to each House of the Gen­eral Assembly shall -concur, by a .yea and nay vote, to be entered upon then- respective Journals, in passing a law to take the sense of the people of the Com­monwealth as to the necessity and expe­diency of calling a Convention for the pur­pose of revising or amending this Oonsti- tution, and such amendments as may have been made to the same, such law shall be spread upon their respective Journals. If the next General Assembly shall, in like manner, concur in such law, they shall provide for having a poll opened in each voting precinct in this State by the officers provided by law for holding general elec­tions, at the next ensuing regular election to he held for State officers or members of the House of Representatives which does not occur within ninety days from the final passage of such law, at which time and places the votes of the qualified electors shall he taken for and against calling the Conven­tion, in the same manner provided by law for taking votes in other State elections. The vote for and against said proposition rshall be certified ‘to the Secretary of State. by the same officers and in the same man­ner as in State elections. If it shall appear that a majority voting on the proposition was for calling a Convention, the Secretary of State shall certify the same to the Gen- oral Assembly at its next regfilar session! .at which session they shall pass a law call­[
Nov ember 24
ing a Convention to re-adopt, revise or amend this Constitution, and such amend­ments as may have been made thereto.
Sue. 4. The Convention, when called, shall consist of as many- members as there are under this Constitution in the State Senate, and no more; and shall possess the same qualifications and be elected in and for the same districts and by the same elec­tors qualified to vote for members of the Senate.
Sue. S. Delegates to such Convention shall be elected at the next general State election, after the passage of the act calling the Convention, which does not occur within less than ninety days; and they shall meet within ninety days after their election at the Capital of the' State, and , continue in session until their work is ready for sub­mission to the’people.
Sec. 6. The General Assembly, in the act calling the Convention, shall provide for comparing the polls and giving certifi­cates of election to the Delegates elected, andsprovide for their compensation.
Sec. 7. The Convention, .when assembled, shall he the judges of the election and qualification of its members, and shall determine contested elections. But "the General Assembly shall, in the act calling the Convention, provide for taking testi­mony in such eases, and for issuing a writ of election in case of a tie. .
S ec. 8. Before a vote is taken upon the question of calling a Convention, the Sec­retary of State shall cause the same to he published in such manner as may he pro­vided by the act directing said vote to he taken.
The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will re­port the first section.
The first section of the report was again read. ’
Mr. APPLEGATE. I desire to offer an amendment to that section.
The amendment was then read, and is as follows: .
Amend section 1 of the report of the
Applegate.1536 REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION.
Monday,].
Bhuthead—Askew.
[November 24.
* Committee on Revision by striking from line -13 thereof the words “ninety days,” and insert the words “ six months".”
' The HEADING CLERK. The Dele­gate from Clark moves to amend bv strik­ing out the words following the word “Con­stitution,” in the 26th line, down to and in­-eluding the word “ time,” in the 28th line. ' The Delegate from Union moves to strike out the word “ majority,” in the 6th line, and insert in lieu thereof the word “two-thirds.”
The Delegate from Kenton (Mr. Glenn) moves to amend by striking from line 2, section 4, the words “ State Senate,” and in­sert in lieu thereof the words “ General As­sembly.”
The Delegate from Henderson moves to amend section 1 by changing in line 3 the words “two-thirds” to a “majority.”
The Delegate from Ohio moves to amend bystriking out the proviso to the first section.
The Delegate from the county of Daveiss (Mr. Pettit) moves the following amend­ment:
And the same shall not become the or­ganic law of the land until approved by the qualified voters qf the Commonwealth.
The same being an amendment to para­graph 3, line 6, of page 3.
Mr. BIRKHBAD. The members of the Committee have no objection tothatamend- ment.
The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would suggest that the report seems to bs divided in clauses.
Mr. BIRKHEAD. It has not been sec­tion alizad.
The CHAIRMAN. That ma^ be done on motion
The READING CLERK. The Delegate from Larue offers the following amendment:
Strike out all of the words between the word “Journals,” in the sixth line, down to and including the word “House” in the ninth line. Insert the word “two” after the word “next,” in the eleventh line. After the word “amendment,” in the twenty-first line, insert the words “at each of. said elec­tions.”
The Delegate from the city of Louis­ville,
Fourth District, offers the following; amendments:
Strike out from line 3 of section 1 the- words “two-thirds,” and insert “three- fifths.” Also amend by striking from sec­tion 1, lines 26, 27 and 28, all. after the- word “ provided.”
Mr. BIRKHEAD. 1 move that the Clerk be instructed to number the sections, as they are represented there by para­graphs.
Mr. ASKEW. I second the motion.
The motion being put, was carried.
The READING CLERK. Mr. McDer­mott moves to amend as follows:
Insert the words “ two-thirds ” before the word “ majority,” in the first line of the third section.
Insert after the words. “ General Assem­bly,” in the 8th line of article 3, these words: “ By a vote of two-thirds of the-
members elected thereto.”
The Delegate from Washington offers the following amendment:
Amend section 5 of report of Commit­tee by adding the following words: “ The Constitution agreed upon shall not take- effect until ratified by a majority of tbe- qualified electors of this State voting at an election to be held for that purpose.
The CHAIRMAN. I would suggest that the report be considered section by sec­tion, and the Delegates offer amendments to the sections as they are reported in their- order. The Committee now has under consideration section 1.
The READING CLERK. The Dele­gate from Wolfe movds to amend section 4 by striking'out of line 2 the words “ State Senate,” and insert in lieu thereof the- words “ House of Representatives.”
The -Delegate from Madison (Mr. Bur- uam) moves to amend by striking out the- word “one,” in line 27, and insert “two,” and add the letter “ s ” to the word “ amend­ment.”
The Delegate from Monroe (Mr. W. Scott Smith) has offered the following:
Amend section 1 by adding the following clause after the word “ House,” in the fourth, line : fiand approved by the Governor.”REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION. i5a?
Monday,]
Mr. BIRKHEAD. Did I understand the Chair to rule that we were discussing the report section by section, or is the whole matter before the Convention for discus­sion? ■
The CHAIRMAN. The Chair has not made a decision on that. The whole report is now before the Committee, and it can be determined by the Committee to consider it section by section.
Mr. BIRKHEAD. I do not presume it is material with the Committee as to whether the report is considered section by section or as a whole, for the preset at least. I want to call the attention of the Commit­tee, briefly, to some reasons that actuated us in formulating and presenting this re­port; and I do not know that I would ask the indulgence of this body if it were not that I am apprised of the fact that there is some opposition to this report, not as a whole, hut in regard to the open clause. The Committee which considered this matter very carefully had some as good talent as there is in this Convention to aid in making this report. This is no novel thing. This idea reported by the Commit­tee on Revision was in the mind of the people over forty years ago. It was vigor­ously and ably discussed in this Hall in the Convention of 1849. True, there were then questions agitating the minds of the people that no longer exist; and the reasons that were then given, and the objections then urged to this special amendment or open clause system, no longer exist. There is, in my humble opinion, and in the judg­ment of this Committee, no reason why there should not he provided an open clause. In the Convention of 1849 there were two parties, having different views on this great question called slavery, that was then in existence. Now we are all proud of the fact that this evil—this cancer on the body-politic—no longer exists ; that slavery' is numbered with the things of the past. The people of' Ken­tucky congratulate themselves that
[November 24.
this terrible evil no longer exists to agitate' or disturb them, or t'o cause National commotion and division. In 1847-8 the friends of the Convention and Constitutional reform assembled in this Hall and unanimously agreed upon the following: <• That we think, rather than put the whole machinery and form of Gov-. eminent to hazard for the purpose of cor­recting an isolated error, it would be better to submit a single proposition for amend, ment to the consideration first of the Legis­lature, and then of the people, under such restrictions as shall be deemed advisable and safe. Public opinion may then be con­sulted upon a single proposition without the danger of combination on other sub­jects.” Therefore, we say, this is no inno­vation or new idea, even in.our own State.
1 think our predecessors in tlie Convention of 1849 would undoubtedly' have adopted an open clause, hut that grave fears were entertained in regard to this great slavery question. It wasr believed by the pro­slavery men that if these special amend­ments were permitted, it would endanger the institution of slavery; and hence the rejection of this and all propositions tend­ing in that direction. But I call attention to the fact that, this open clause or special amendment system, suggested by the- Committee, is prudent, wise and safe. Our experience in this Convention, teaches us that we cannot tell what amendments or propositions will be brought in. Already propositions have- been brought in here that the people— at least in my end of the State—never- heard of until we came to this Convention. So I say, we cannot foretell what provis­ions, amendments or suggestions will he- engrafted in this Constitution ; and if we in Convention commit an error in our de­liberations, and in framing and bringing out this Constitution, we shall he powerless to remedy this evil without calling another Convention. Certainly, we are not willing to cut the State loose from her moorin
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to have another Convention assemble, at an expense, perhaps, of $50,000 or §100,000, to correct some errors that may creep into the Constitution we are making. In the report submitted for the consideration of this body, the Committee provide such safe­guards as they deem wise and prudent. They have provided that the General As­sembly, by a two-thirds vote at one session, and by a majority vote at the next session, shall submit amendments to the electors of the State for ratification or rejection. Cer­tainly, it seems to me, we could not have suggested better restriction or a better safeguard than is presented here. It will give the Legislature ample time to discuss fhese various questions that may come up. It will give the people ample time to con­sider the various propositions that may be submitted to them, and if, in their judg­ment, after due and proper deliberation, it is deemed proper to adopt or ratify the same, I contend that it should then become, a law. If we adopt the open clause system, and it is left, for us to' accept or reject propo­sitions' singly and separately, it is highly probable that in a great many instances we may discover wrong, and reject some sec­tion, which we cannot do if this Constitu­tion is submitted without the power of amending by special provision. I think it would be very prudent and wise in this Convention to adopt the report of the Committee, so that we may right any errors or wrongs that this Convention may make in its deliberations. If there are errors under the report of the Committee, we can correct these wrongs ; if there are no errors, certainly the report of the Committee can do no harm. It may be that calamities or misfortunes may overtake us that will render it important for us to make some changes. Will you call another Conven­tion? Will the people of the State, or will the Delegates upon this floor, if the growth of the State may develop the need for a change that we cannot now foresee, say that we cannot remedy the defect thus made.
except by calling another Convention, at an expense perhaps of §50,000, $100,000, or maybe $200,000 ? I am persuaded that this report will be adopted in some form or another. We have no personal or special pride of opinion about it. We are not wedded to the phraseology we have pre­sented here. We are contending very earnestly for tile principle we have pre­sented to this Convention, and we urge Delegates to weigh it carefully.
We may desire to place some restrictions on the taxing power. Will the people deny the sovereign electors or tax-payers of this Commonwealth the right to remedy any evils that may he discovered without calling another Convention ? It certainly will not be necessary for me even to at­tempt to make any extended remarks upon this subject. I am persuaded that the minds of the Delegates are made up on this ques­tion. They have decided, I am confident, that this report, or one of similar meaning, should be adopted.
If precedents are worth any thing in the consideration of this grave question, I de­sire briefly to call the attention of Delegates to the existence of a similar provision in the different Constitutions of the States of this country: Alabama has an open clause; and also provides for a Convention—1875. I have gathered this information from Poore’s Compilation of Constitutions, and have looked at all the States but six. Col­orado has an open clause, also the power to call a Convention—1876. Connecticut has an open clause with no power to call a Convention—1818. Delaware has an open clause, and also provides for a Constitu­tional Convention—1881. Florida has an open clause ; also power to call a Conven­tion. Georgia has an open clause; Illi­nois has an open clause—1870—and also power to call a Convention. Iowa has an open clause, hut retains the power to call a Convention—1857- Kansas
has likewise provided an open clause for special amendments in her Constitution—REVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION. 1539
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1858. Louisiana has an open clause—1864. Maryland, Michigan, Oregon and Rhode Island, all have open clauses. South Caro­lina, Texas, Tennessee, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, an,d, I might say, all the State Constitutions that I have examined, in this work prepared by Poore, have pro­vided themselves with these open clauses •or special amendments; and in no case, so far as my information extends, has there been any reason to murmur or to complain. Massachusetts adopted Sm open clause in her Constitution in 1780, and has since added twenty-six amendments, the last in 1863—one hundred and ten years without a Constitutional Convention. I am not going to detain Hie Committee, for, as I have already stated, I presume their minds are already made up on this question, and from what I can see of the amendments presented, with some slight changes and modifications, they will be willing to accept the report of the Committee.
I want briefly to call the attention of the Convention to the last provision that we .have made with reference to the calling of a Convention. “ Delegates to such Con­vention shall be elected at tbe next general State election after tbe passage of the act calling the Convention, which does not occur within less than ninety-days; and they shall meet within ninety days after ■ their election at the Capital of the State, and continue in session until their work is ready for submission to tbo people.”
The point I want to call attention to is section 4 : “Tbe Convention, when called, shall consist of as many members as there are under this Constitution in the State Senate, and no more; and shall possess the same qualifications and be elected in and for the same districts, and by the same electors qualified to vote for members of the Senate.” I am aware of the fact that there will be very serious objection urged to this part of the report, as already evi­denced by the. amendments offered, provid­[
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ing that the House of Representatives shall be inserted in lieu of “ State Senate.” We are all apprised of the fact that sometimes, and I believe it would be true in this Convention here to-day, if we had a smaller number of Delegates, they would frame as good a Constitution, and do it quicker, than the hundred men now assembled. I do not want to be un­derstood as reflecting on the wisdom of any Delegate upon this floor; but we are im­pressed with the fact, that it is sometimes best not to have too many. While we have been informed and edified by the dis­cussions and speeches that have been deliv­ered upon this floor, yet I am persuaded that if this Convention had assembled here with the same number as the Senate, in­stead of the House of Representatives, it could have done the work at a much smaller expense, and quite as satisfactorily, to the people of the entire State. I believe that the time has come when we should economize—when we should not have so many officers; that the people are ask­ing at the hands, not only of, this State, but of the United States, that there shall not be'so many officers in existence; but we should curtail and re­duce the number of officers. I cannot sec why we should not he willing to begin just at this point and reduce the number of of­ficers that are to compose the next Consti­tutional Convention of this State, should one be called. If we are economical, if we are careful, if we protect and guard tbe in­terests of our people in every particular, I believe we will receive the thanks and the approval of our constituents. Without economy in private affairs, estates the most magnificent, and fortunes that are princely, maybe dissipated, scattered and squandered, and go to ruin. In public affairs, if we lose sight of economy, the same result is inevitable; without it, the highest prosperi­ty is lost, and insolvency, repudiation and disgrace are fastened upon the State and Government. Of course, I do not want to
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be. understood as advocating economy at the exp